DIY TT

The OP I hope does feel there is time on their side and they do not have t rush into their decisions to acquire a TT.

I have made the Aurex SR 510 known and the information below are Copy and Pastes from the user of one that guided myself towards the model.

We have shared private mails on the TT Subject as well and there is not any  reason to suggest their assessment is incorrect. 

When the statement is made the TT is comparable to a MS RX 1500 TT, there will be a truth in this.

That is a £4000 - £7000 MS TT being slip streamed by a TT that can cost £6800 less.

__________________________________________________________________

Toshiba Aurex SR 510 drive with 12" Thorens tonearm.

The Toshiba drive was supposed to compete with the Technics SP 10 at the time is now and again at fair prices in the bay.

The weak point was the original tonearm at that time, and nowadays the integrated PhonoPre is no longer needed for the "special" Toshiba systems.

Greeting

Juergen

______________________________________________________________

 

Now that I've played around with various off-the-shelf tonearms,       I kind of like a straight arm next to the direct drive motor unit, especially when it's a 12' arm.

I tried a Thorens TP92 12' tonearm in one of the existing "parking lot" holes on the side of the headshell to check whether the possible tonearm height fits. The direct drive unit is quite high and the wooden chassis is quite massive.

(I unscrewed the black aluminum cover)

My Thorens TP92 12' arm has continuous wiring that has to be soldered underneath the tonearm base, which fits perfectly with the existing cinch sockets of the Toshiba turntable.

With my other tonearms with DIN connection I would have led out a separate cable, but I like it better that way.

Maybe I'll have the built-in phono preamplifier overhauled, you can bridge it, since the Toshiba has 2 pairs of cinch outputs.
 

However, the Thorens TP92 in 12' is quite heavy with an effective mass of 21g, which somewhat limits the selection of possible MM pickups (the integrated PhonoPre is only MM), but a JICO SETO HORI MC system could work, since this is a high output MC system goes through and likes medium to heavy tonearms.

Hopefully it will be a bit colder again soon, then it will be even more fun to work on the lathe.

__________________________________________________

 

the Toshiba SR 510 also plays with a friend of mine and doesn't need to hide from a Micro Seiki RX-1500 with Koetsu tonearm standing next to it. Thanks to the interchangeable headshell, the comparison (with the contemporary Yamaha MC-9) can be made quickly.

With my SR510, unfortunately, the original tonearm can only be repaired with (for me) greater effort, insofar as the assembly of a modern tonearm in the 1000 EUR class.

The TP92 tonearm is mounted reversibly, if you want to mount the original arm again, this can be done optically and technically without any difference to the original, since the Thorens TP92 hole is covered by the (black) original tonearm base (see pictures).


In fact, it would have been possible to have a frame for the Toshiba direct drive drive built on the basis of a Technics SP10 frame, for example. But in terms of price, it would make the project unnecessarily expensive and since the original frame can still be used "originally", ie it is not damaged by the additional drilling, I went this route.

On one of the next cool days I will devote myself to connecting the tone arm.

Greeting

Juergen

There are probably 100's of Thousands of TT users of which a Large Proportion are types who do not know much of anything about TT's, apart from the need to level one, and have a Tonearm > Cartridge set to a particular geometry.

These types will I assume all be quite adept at replaying vinyl and useful disciplines to be maintained.

Within such a group a smaller proportion 'might' care to know a little more about their TT's such as the design for speed stability, torque, and the correct matching of Tonearm > Cartridge and maybe even consider the correct loading requirements for a Cartridge.

Within the smaller proportion there are a much smaller proportion and very rare type, that obsess in a manner that is a Polar Opposite and even does not seem to have any interest in taking part in the enjoyment of replaying music.

The whole attention is appearing to be focusing only on the the mechanics and electronics and not at any time reflect that the ownership of a HiFi System is basically about replaying music recordings and enjoying the moment.

I have travelled to meet many like minded individuals and throughout the years, during this time, I have encountered what is in my assessment the odd obsessional type, and I have found it to be best practice not to engage to much, as the fun of the days events can easily be obscured by excessive laborious Tech Talk.

The OP has requested that options on TT's are suggested and is working their way through the ones that has been offered.

There are quite a few things been made known, in relation to Plinth Materials to be used for a Design, along with the best configuration on the Plinth for the Tonearm Lengths to be considered.

Designing a Plinth for Two Tonearms is desired and if the Plinth Design was able to support a Longer Tonearm, that would be a future proofing consideration that can be incorporated.  

An alternative if the Plinth Design was not wanted to have a provision to mount a 12" arm or longer would be to use an ancillary that would enable this at a later date. 

The link will show a very recent thread that has discussed ancillary Tonearm Mounting devices, and give the OP a broader insight to how others, including contributors to this thread are expressing their thoughts on the use of such an item

 

I am sure that the OP's good judgement will help them make a choice for TT that produces a replay that is extremely satisfying, even if the TT has a 9",  12" Arm or longer and the performance is 0.025% rumble - 78dB - torque 1.5 kg.cm and not   0.015%, rumble -92dB torque 6.0 kg.cm.

It does seem from the overall input from the OP, they are keen to own a TT, that has a little creativity from their end contributed to the final assembly.

I am yet to see any concern from them for Microns, rumble and Torque available from a Model. 

  If the OP has been considering the Manufacturers Design Intent for a TT of interest.

The following has been supplied by Juergen, who is in  my view a trusted source, and the  Source of other info offered within this thread.   

I think the info' clearly explains a enjoyable experience can be had when replaying LP's and a Tonearm of choice can be added, as long as it is off a certain length.  

Source: Toshiba brochure from the 70s.

Toshiba STUDIO RECORD PLAYER SR-510

1. Direct drive

2. Electronically controlled servo motor

3.2 speed control

4. Sensor switching

5. Spot spirit level

6. Interchangeable tonearm

7. Preamplifier for electret condenser systems

1. Direct drive

Advantage:

In contrast to the previously known drive systems (friction wheel or belt), the axis of the turntable is one unit with the axis of the rotating part of the motor (rotor) in this studio turntable.

That means:

1. The rumbling noises that occur with this drive system are so low that they are well into the inaudible range.

2. Due to the direct power transmission, any slip is excluded; one reason for the exact adherence to the target speed.

3. The ramp-up time, in which the drive gets from standstill to the target speed, is within half a revolution.

2. Electronically controlled servo motor

Advantage:

The voltage level for the motor of the loudspeaker is constantly kept at the desired value by a photoelectrically generated control voltage.

That means:

Any deviation from the target speed is continuously compensated, the synchronization accuracy is better than 1/30,000.

3. Dual speed control

Advantage 1:

The target speed of 33 1/3 or 45 rpm can be roughly checked by means of a light display - too fast, normal, too slow.

Advantage 2:

There is a fine adjuster for each target speed, which can be used to adjust the indicator light (too fast or too slow) within a range of ±4%. The completely exact setting of the target speed is then carried out using the same fine adjusters with the help of an illuminated stroboscope.

That means:

With this ease of use, precise adjustment of the turntable speed has become possible for everyone; without additional measuring devices and also during operation.

4. Sensor switching

Advantage:

Turntable speed is switched by sensors. That means:

Sensors switch electronically without the application of mechanical force, ie only by briefly touching them. As a result, this process is completely free of cracking noises and vibrations.

5. Spot spirit level

Advantage:

A spot spirit level is installed in the housing of the drive, which enables precise sounding during installation with the help of the four spring-loaded and height-adjustable feet.

That means:

Uneven installation surfaces can be compensated with this device.

6. Interchangeable tonearm

Advantage:

The turntable and tonearm were mounted separately in the frame and have no other mechanical connection to each other.

That means:

The S-shaped tubular tonearm of the device with hydraulic tonearm lift and international tone head attachment can be easily exchanged for any other commercially available tonearm. 7. Preamplifier for electret condenser systems Advantage:

As a further component of the drive, a switchable equalizer preamplifier for electret condenser systems is already permanently installed.

That means:

The drive can be operated with both magnetic and electret condenser systems (e.g. Toshiba C-404 SY) without further upgrades.

Technical specifications

Drive: Type of drive: direct Motor: electrically controlled AC servo motor

Speeds: 33'/s, 45 rpm Speed ​​deviations: ±0 Speed ​​control range: ±4% Wow and flutter: ±0.03% Signal-to-noise ratio: >60dB

Platter: 300 mm~, 1.2 kg die-cast aluminum Run-up time: within 0.5 revolutions

Tonearm:

Type: statically balanced S tonearm eff. Length: 237mm

Max. tracking error: +1.5', -0.5° Overhang: 15 mm Tape head attachment: internal. '/2 inch Bearing pressure: 0 - 4 p

Tonearm lift: hydraulically damped Pickup system:

(drive can be delivered fully equipped)

Model: C-404SY

Type: Electret condenser Frequency response: 20 - 50,000 Hz Output voltage: 30 mV Channel separation: 25d13 (1 kHz), 15 dB (30 kHz)

Differences in the sensitivity of the channels: 1 dB

Stylus compliance: 15 x 10-` cm/dyne Bearing pressure: 1.5p, ±0.5p Stylus: EXTEND (special elliptical bevel for reading CD-4)

General:

Mains voltage: 110/120/220/240 V, 50/60 Hz

Power consumption: 14W Dimensions: W 550, D 414, H 190 mm Weight: 12.5 kg

Design: rosewood frame, smoke-colored acrylic cover Equipment: 2 cynch cables, 1 ground wire, 1 puck for singles, 1 screwdriver, liquid needle cleaner, velvet brush for cleaning records

 

 

I have a selection of DD TT's which are duplicated, a duplicate model is to undergo a Platter Spindle Bearing Rebuild to assess how a modern approach to a Bearing design can impact on the SQ.

Within the collection of DD TT's, there are thee Denon DP80's, of which one has the Gunmetal Platter.

I am intending on One Model to receive a complete rebuild of the Patter Spindle Bearing Housing with modern materials exchanged for the original Parts.

One Model to have the Bearing Serviced and One Model to remain as purchased.

I can then compare the rebuilt bearing with Both Platter Types to the Original with a Bearing Serviced and Bearing untouched with both Platter Types, mounted on a Lead Plinth using the same Tonearm>Cartridge.

The final experience will be to mount the TT's in a Panzerholz Plinth and see how the modern materials in use are comparable to the earliest used materials.

This method is already underway on another Vintage DD TT.

As stated before and not really picked up on, an Aurex SR-520 is a very affordable  DD TT which was a Top of the Range model and can be sourced at a very fair price, 

I don't foresee disappointment when cost to performance and SQ is considered in the purchase equation.

The individual that made myself aware of the model had compared, the most basic model, very favourably to a Micro Seiki Model.

Their Model now has a much improved Tonearm in use with it.  

 

That was an early morning post, the link will guide you, and there are more affordable models to be discovered than this price.

The Plinth is a Lead Version and not the Platter .

There is a Phosphor Bronze / Gun Metal Platter to be used on the DP 80's

The Gun Metal Platter has a Recess on the underside at the Spindle Pin Location, and an Engineer friend is to produce inserts that will enable the platter to be attached to other TT's.

The SP10 MkII is the first of the models I have requested to be investigated, to see how the marriage will work. This is appealing as the SP10 Mk II is to be used as both Standard in a Panzerholz Plinth and as a Kaneta Design in a Panzerholz Plinth.

The methods put to use are purely as a result of being a hobbyist with an interest and the knowing individuals who have very good machining skills especially where the need of HiFi is required.      

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/en/auction/yahoo/input/n1041344133/lgk-link_top_search

I have to listen to a TT to judge how it impacts on me and leaves a impression.

As I really enjoy the music and the pleasure of sharing in moments with LP's, especially the ones owned for numerous years, along with those purchased to offer a helping hand to upcoming artists. 

When taking part in such moments I don't use the time for analytically dissecting the equipment and deciding if one is outperforming the other, that is not where I am at.

If the equipment in use is making a good first impression, it can remain in use until such a time a different flavour is sought. That could even prove to be a period of listening to a CD.

Some Vinyl users attempt to indulge in a different flavour by having options on Tonearms and Cartridges, along with other means to create the experience, I do this with TT's and Phonostages, I am Cartridge and Tonearm Loyal and have throughout my experience used a range of Tonearms that I do not really wish to experience any longer.

The appreciation in value is quite nice though, the Grand Children will enjoy the trinkets when inherited.

Periodically I do have my version of being analytical, especially when trialling materials and creating new interfaces.

The outcome of the trials undertaken and experiences encountered, is that I have developed a preference for a light weight plinth structure and no longer create massy plinth structures. The selection of Granite  Slate, and Stone Composite I accumulated does not have a future use as a TT Plinth. The Materials are to found in my system as parts of a Sub Plinth Structure for mounting Speakers and Power Amps.

The TT's that have been demonstrated and used with lighter materials has proved to get my attention and approval, I have made the transition to the lightweight plinth material in an assured manner.  

One other benefit of having TT's mounted onto lightweight materials when compared to stone, is the ease of handling.                                                                Taking a Stone Plinth TT to another system to be demonstrated as part of a social gathering can create quite a few concerns, it is a very fit young mans sport.

I don't hesitate to offer a TT mounted in a Light Weight Plinth Material to be taken along for a demonstration. 

Certain of the owned Materials designated to be used for Plinth Materials is also proving to be a excellent material to be incorporated into a Sub Plinth Structure.

Making a Plinth capable of mounting Two Tonearms, will add a noticeable mass if Stone is the Selected Material, and potentially create a Weight that is difficult to control, if the Tone arm is increasing in Wand Length. 

There are Board Materials that are designed with properties that are very stable and will not change in a detrimental way in any environment encountered.

There are TT's that demand a high retail price that have Plinth and Chassis produced from Board that is quite unstable and can absorb moisture and warp.

If a careful consideration is given for a board material type, it will not add too much of a noticeable weight increase, if cut to a dimension that will enable the Second Tonearm to be mounted, even if going beyond the usual 9" and 12" Arm configuration.

There are Plenty of TT's that can be considered and Numerous Plinth Materials and designs for these that can be considered, looks like this venture will gather a few followers.

If your confidence grows and a want develops to work with the mechanical interfaces on the TT, I'm sure this extension of the interest will be met with some useful guidance. 

   

As for the 12" Arm I referred to it, as there are commonly seen configurations using a arm of this length on a Two Tonearm Plinth Design.

I am not an owner of  12" Arm but do listen to them. I have listened to the SME V/12" on quite a few occasions prior to Coved, there is a Glanz 12" Model I regularly encounter with a Miyajima Cartridge.

Again I have never detected at any time a difference that is perceivable as a separation between a 9" in use and a 12" in use.

The enjoyment factor during the replays is parity for me when both length arms are in use. 

Another friend who extremely analytical as a listener and in their Mechanical / Electronic Engineering approach, is assisting with rethink designs for a known Tonearm Producer and is the assembler and Tuner of the Brands Top of Range Models, along with being the EE, for the Brands next range of Phonostages.      This friend has recently gone to using a 12" version of a rethought out design for the one in use,  and this has now elevated itself,  as the main used Tonearm in my friends system. I am yet to receive a demonstration of this new addition to their system. 

The individuals I regularly speak to, who produce their own versions of Tonearms and are much more technically minded than myself, have not convinced me during my inquiries, a 12" Model will be a significant improvement. I am not convinced these individuals will be offering a option on a 12" design for their creations.

Again others might feel much more support for the design is merited and be more encouraging in the idea of choosing the length as a model. 

 CLD is a heavily debated method and has quite a few methods regularly seen that is not exactly CLD.

If you want to be guided to good CLD Construction advice supported with measurements for the works created, let me know and I will PM information on how to access it.

I have referenced a  Denon DP-80 with a Gunmetal Platter as these become available for sale and might have proved attractive to the OP.

From my many years of acquiring Japanese Design Vintage DD TT's, I have not seen a Gunmetal Platter as a singular item for sale, even though I have seen the whole Platter Assembly, minus TT,  and inclusive of the Gunmetal part for sale.

There are commonly seen Gunmetal or Stainless Steel options for a Platter that are belonging to other Japanese Vintage DD TT's. Maybe there is a want for such add on parts to a TT within the Japan Market, and I was fortunate to find a DP-80 wiith this part included, I have seen m any since my purchase and there is a premium asking price for such a model.

The jury is out on Massey vs Lightweight Plinths, the point is argued in many forums, I let my listening experiences produce the evidence I needed to motivate my making a change.  

I do not get too caught up in the absolute mechanical theories for a device used in a TT Set Up, much of the precision that is suggested should be in place is inaudible to most listeners and definitely will be very difficult to determine to a well trained ear that has an older body coupled to them. 

There are multiple TT's that have a Platter Spindle that has an eccentric rotation in place as part of the poor design for the interfaces or usage has allowed the interfaces to wear.

The eccentric rotations are detrimental to the Stylus contact in the Groove and Speed Stability, but the replays on a TT with such a Spindle Interface are thoroughly enjoyed y the TT's owner.

Obsessing over thousands of a mm, is not for me, or in that case many manufacturers, who seem to have at time flagrantly flouted the ideas associated with tight tolerances, these things add to the bottom line.

I do meet and share time with individuals who do take microns seriously in the work they produce, one trusted friend also has devices that enable them to measure the effects of some of the work undertaken. They keep there keen eye on such concerns for the workshop, and can separate listening pleasure during demonstrations from the work produced, and I see this as a very attractive trait.

The listeners reactions to the demonstration is enough to see the qualities that are on offer.  

The theory of the mechanics and the obsession with the theories is good fuel for some to rant and attack over, and these rants from my experiences are seen to manifest from a small group only.

I have yet to see a Manufacturer go toe to toe with somebody on the design theories, and it is these bodies that the average user has only got to trust in such matters.

The challenges are usually directed at a user who has made known a choice they chose to use, and one which I am sure in many instances has proven to be a very enjoyable encounter. 

As most comes from a very small faction, it is quite tolerable, even though sometimes there is an unsavoury element to the expressions being made.

@Lewn I know what a Gun Metal Platter Mat is as I own a Tenuto, I also know that a Gun Metal Platter Mat can be sourced produced in various thicknesses and weights.

The Gun Metal Platter I am referring to that belongs to the owned DP 80 is a machined metal that is substantial and designed to be the Top Part of the DP 80 Platter, I would give this a status beyond that as a Platter Mat, and give it the status of being a purpose produced part of the DP 80 Two Piece Platter.

As said previously it is such a substance that it is to be assessed for use as a Platter for another owned TT.

I would not be having a typical design for a Platter Mat assessed by an Engineer to be suitable as a Platter, not unless he was in need of a expressing great volumes of laughter.        

@holmz If you are interested in a range of DD TT's from various Brands, from a Vintage Era and willing to PM these to me.

I can assist you with a search for some of the items, if this is something you would like a support with.  

 

@vinylzone The Self Built TT, looks very nice, the Acrylic or Polycarbonate Plinth Material is a nice touch.

The Acrylic when used as a thinner sheet and assembled to be used as a CLD Structure has produced quite attractive damping measurements.

I am sure the CLD structure will not have the same aesthetic as yours if clear sheets is used.

As for structures, I also see a further thought has been given to the Sub Plinth Structure as well, I have been carrying out investigations into assemblies across the years and have been quite surprised by some of the discoveries made.

It is interesting how a Plywood Board has proven itself as a Tier in a Structure and is seen on a regular basis used as a Tier in a structure under a TT.

There also appears to be an additional two Tiers of Acrylic used in the structure, this also of interest to me. 

Have these materials been selected through trialing them for their impact on the SQ being produced, or are they used as the initial design for a support structure as they were readily available.  

@holmz  The link is a worthwhile read, Juergen contributes within this thread on a selection of his owned TTs.

There are other long term users of other Brand Models who offer reports on the impressions that have been made.

It has a good selection of commentaries on a range of Vintage Brand TT's with different motor drives in use. 

To get the maximum benefit of the reports, a right click usually works, with the selecting translate on the pop up tool bar, it might have to be repeated as the pages are changed.

 

 

@holmz This is one link I had forgotten I had bookmarked.

It contains images that will surely get the creative thoughts working overtime.

https://www.avsite.gr/forum/threads/dd-turntables.178381/

The Through Section of the JVC shows a substantial material has been selected for the Chassis and the walls and base of the Recessed Bowl.

The Bowls role is usually to house the Stator and additionally is used to support the mounting of the Platter Bearing Housing.

I have seen a selection of DD TT models that I have shown an interest in that has a wafer thin bowl wall material as a comparison to the JVC.

I have also informed a engineer friend who had one of the models with a very thin bowl material and the outcome of their investigations was that a flexion has been occurring and this energy is most likely to be received by the Cartridge.

The flexion will also show as an eccentric rotation and this a independent speed strobe will show the eccentric rotation will impact on Speed Stability.

The eccentric rotation will also impact on the stylus interface within the Groove and will most likely be a cause of a distortion.

Such conditions that are transferring energy to the Cart’ and impacting on the Cart’s Geometry when in the Groove, when present, will not enable a Hi End Tonearm and Cartridge to perform at their best.

The cost associated with such ancillaries and the compromised environment they are potentially being used in, will hopefully have been identified in advance by the user and have been accepted as an acceptable condition to continue with.

There are methods known for a recess bowl produced from a poor quality material, to make a recess bowl and bearing base rigidly secure and substantially decrease deflection, maybe even eradicate it.

Looks like the study of the Vintage Models has brought the 'Trekkie' fan out as well 😀 

@vinylzone We would get along mighty fine and dandy, with the inquisitive nature shared between us about materials used for structures to support TT's.

I am still trying to learn if the choices are just restricted to the choice of the materials, or additionally the environment the materials are used in to produce a structure.

I have taken other selections of materials to other homes, and the ones I thought were going to be the preferred ones by the assessors,  have been the least attractive selected on the day, to which I have been in agreement,  👨‍🎓👩‍🎓, more clever types might be able to help with that conundrum.

@vinylzone Thank You for the information and the knowledge of your exchanging the Plywood Board to the Substantial Piece of Maple Wood.

If a an additional piece of Acrylic is available of a suitable dimension, a option will be to consider a CLD Layer at this position in the structure, the doubling of the thickness will improve the structural property and it should be able to take the added weight of the Maple.

Acrylic in 8mm thickness has measured very favourably for damping and dissipation when assessed as Plinth Material, I am awaiting to see further measurements when it is used with a 0.8mm thick, double sided Teflon Tape.

As a First Tier in a Sub Plinth, the CLD design could prove to be quite a valuable choice.

 I use Cork Footers under a 30mm Thick Granite as my first Tier, and have one other not so commonly used material as a Tier sandwiched between Granite and Plinth with Two different design footers separating the sandwiched Tier.

@holmz The additional information and the variety of thoughts offered  from different end users, is always a welcome way to extend ones understanding and knowledge of products used. 

Being too insular in my experience is not going to bring inspiring discoveries. 

I recently purchased a Board of Densified Wood, the Panzerholz Brand, solely to be used for TT Plinths.

A change to how I am living is creating the need for me to put the HiFi system into storage for a period of time.

With the change of plans, I have made use of the P'holz as a Sub Plinth Material with AT 616 Footers, and used it on a Valve CDP Design and a Garrard 401 TT, in two different environments.

When the devices were mounted on the footers AT 616 only at the latter part of the listening session, the benefit of the P'holz was immediately recognised for its positive influence on the SQ.

When I am up an running again, I will carry out my own further trials for this material.

There are a few companies offering P'holz Sub Plinths as their sale items, and the asking price of $1200+ can be found.

I am sure the uniqueness of the Water Stains on my boards give them a sonic superiority over the fluted designs on commercially of P'holz items😁   

A recent new Member to my local HiFi group, has been quite impressed with the Isoacoustics Oria Footers that they have been loaned to try out in their system.

Following the experience with the Panzerholz and the AT 616 Footers the same person has sent out a link to the HiFi Group of a device they are considering buying for there TT.

It looks like it is a substantial piece of kit and hopefully if acquired it will prove quite valuable to their set up, it can be seen in the attached link.

I have set speakers up in the past on Heavy Plinths with AT 616 feet under the speakers and got very pleasant results.

I have set up similar methods for others, using their speakers and the result has been either Isoacoustic Gaia Footers are now in use or a Townsend Sub Base.

The Footer I use directly in contact with my TT Plinth is the Solid Tech 'Feet of Silence'. I have yet to have this footer improved on.

My assessments are subjective like 1000's of assessments, I don't measure such things, as I don't know how to do so accurately.

The most commonly used vibration measurement methods, which are using  accelerometers and laser devices as the methods to measure are not suitable for vibration measurement of micro vibrations. The methods referred to as Optical interferometry has the advantages of being a non-contact system and measures to a very high accuracy.

Devices to measure ambient vibration accurately and that can supply a trusted reading of a condition that can have a detrimental impact on a stylus when positioned in the LP groove are not very affordable, and are certainly not on any HiFi enthusiasts that I know equipment list.

I do believe there is a lot more available to impact on a stylus in a detrimental manner manifesting from within a Bearing Assembly, Bearing Housing Mounting Method or from the Tonearm having design flaws where bearings are as friction free as can be or internal wiring is restrictive to free wand movement. 

If the TT and Tonearm have both cncerning conditions in conjunction I don't think knowing about ambient micro vibrations and putting in control measures is going to have too much a impact on the overall situation. 

 

 

@vinylzone To not detract too far from your entrance into this thread, I believe your  TT with the new adornment of the Maple Sub Plinth has improved on the role over the Plywood it has replaced.

I know this wood is selected for use in musical instruments for its damping properties, and more importantly how it impacts on the overall structure of the musical instrument when present and carefully attached, I would class this as a complex structure.

My structures produced are not complex and I have even produced a structure that can have a Sub Plinth in suspension on O Rings, a little like a SME Suspension Method.

I chose not to follow up on this method as it was precarious and not really trusted with valuable equipment sat upon it.

The Solid Tech 'Feet of Silence' have offered a variant of this type of a suspension support, and have been very satisfactory and remained as the most valued footer.

Their offered improvement over all other used footers, at being able to deliver a noticeable removal of smearing and offering increased perceptions of attack, dynamics, envelope and micro dynamics is quite something. 

Your structure and your use of Maple is not as complex as a musical instrument  structure, but I feel it can impact on the SQ in a manner that makes it a worthwhile choice.

Subjective evaluation from, in use/not in use periods, might give the additional reassurance for the choice made, but I would assume you have already experienced a this when the Plywood was swapped for the Maple. 

Having a few friends over is good thing, I would not deny anybody that experience, if it good for the mind, its definitely good for the body and spirit.

Would the average enthusiast for using LP's to replay a recording, find it  necessary to use such an experience to suggest that a few subjective evaluations, where a friend or two likes the experience and musical encounter with their preferred music being replayed, is an evidence that you are an authority and guru on a set up for a LP replay.      

   

The following are a few statements made within a few previous posts, and then low and behold a subjective assessment is all that is required to produce reassuring evidence.

Ones ears are great tools, if the perception of SQ is a detractor, then a stimulation can be created to pursue a furthering of used methods to find a presentation that is an attractor, that can be achieved by a rethink on the methods used for mounting from the Rack Shelve up to the Platter Mat in use.

Out of interest during the Covid lockdown period throuout the globe.

There was a host of posts appear about the perception of improved SQ within systems be noticed.

The period was known as the unprecedented period for using modern HiFi, as the Grid Power Supply was not being drawn on in a capacity that is usual, and the reduction in Traffic and Transport Services had substantially reduced seismic activity, the seismic monitoring stations was reading this drop in vibration. 

Again a group of individuals across the world detecting change through subjective, evaluation, with a little bit of additional ambient environment being known of to make the claims seem feasible.

I do not recall any of the contributors to a thread needing to supply data from recorded measurements of their own systems to prove their reports being substantiated, the ears were looking good enough, and the trend for the reporting maybe produced an increased awareness to the attractive perception that was present.   

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Seems that your statement is mainly subjective and I think that you need to measure as @mijostyn posted, I' agree with him .

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Dear @vinylzone  : " I do not have any vibration or rumble issues in my setup, "

How do you know, how can you be so sure?

I ask because time ago I was sure that my analog rig was free of any kind of generated distortions related as what we are discussing here with you.

A few months ago my friend Carlos came to my place and we were listening MUSIC, mainly classic because he is a Simphonic Orchestra player. Obviously that he is accustomed to listen at high SPL as in a live even seated at near field. So in one LP ( non classic score but Asian drums. ) with SPL over 95db and with a low bass reproduction part the windows started to vibrate... after that I told you Carlos if that vibrations affected the other frequency ranges ( mid/high ) sk if he detected " something " and like me he told me that does not detected any kind of " problem " about.

I took that experience as a confirmation that my analog rig was safe of that kind of " events " 

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The most commonly used vibration measurement methods, which are using  accelerometers and laser devices as the methods to measure are not suitable for vibration measurement of micro vibrations. The methods referred to as Optical interferometry has the advantages of being a non-contact system and measures to a very high accuracy.

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@holmz I use a TT with a 86db S/N R, which is the SP10 MkII that has been fully overhauled by an Engineer, who is a recognised  authority on this model of TT in the UK.

This is my go to TT over all my other TT's, for three reasons,

One, being I really enjoy the replays when using it.

Two, a good friend has helped me source it and gave it their special attention on my behalf.

Three, I had an input in to the aesthetic that the chassis has had applied to it.

It was the SP10 MkII Model, when first encountered quite a few years past, that was the encouragement to change from Idler Drives as being my go to TT's.

The idea of leaving Idler Drives in Massey plinths was a wrench, but the DD in a Lightweight Plinth took the mantle. 

It has also been the impression that this TT has made, that has spurred myself on to collect a selection of different Brands of DD TT's, even though these are TOTR Consumer Models and not a Model produced to be used for professional purposes.

Interestingly Juergen also owns the SP10 MkII.

The following is an update on the work he has been undertaking with the TT last year.

I have a range of Platter Mats I use on all my TT's, when you are set up, maybe this can be a side bar inquiry to see if further improvement can be suggested by discussing Mats and the perceived impaction they have on a SQ. 

I'm curious what you report,
I'm also trying out different mats on my SP10 - MKII drive.

For example, the following bronze plate fits exactly into the plate cut-out:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/164682…db0097:g:uxkAAOSw34JgCcv2

I currently have the thick Zanden rubber mat on it

http://www.zandenaudio.com/product/TPM-1.php

which also fits into the plate cut-out.
I had already looked at the OMA, but had not yet been able to try it.
Greeting

Juergen

 

 

       

I had used the A&R Cambridge P77 many years past and have still go the main body stored.

This was the Cartridge that I felt was most impressive out of other MM's when used on my Belt Drive TT and in the early stages of my use of Idler Drives.

When I am done with my MC days, when the ears don't justify the expense of purchasing one.

I will be trying out the P77 once more, with a new Cantilever and Stylus along with my AT - 150's and HOMC's I have in the Cart' collection.

@holmz The link is one that I have bookmarked in the past.

It might be off interest to anybody with an interest in maintaining a A&R Cambridge 77, and that is the reason I have it saved.

The Esco Paratrace has been known to myself for some time.

The most recent information shown in the link, also references the Esco Paratrace.

The discussion on this forum recently made it known the Paratrace, FGS 'S' and Ortofon Replicant 100 Stylus are all sharing the same form and the only differences that might distinguish one Companies to another,  'might' be if one company is selective in the tolerances for the dimension of the forms they select to be used on their models, hence Ortofons reference to a Special Polish on a Replicant 100 Stylus is seen in the tech data for many years and their ToTR Models.

The lesser models or Ortofon siblings in their Cart' ranges do not get the notification that the Stylus has received the Special Pampering Treatment. 

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=80943

My experiences with Cart's has been a continuous journey and one I am not sure if there is an end place for me.

I have enjoyed MM's, HOMC's and LOMC's and a Ceramic Cart' with an equal measure, each has supplied very pleasurable hours of enjoyment when listening to LP's.   

I do believe, I have moved on from Aluminium as a Cantilever, there is a little too much smearing detected in my system when aluminium is the material.                   A boron Cantilever will noticeably be an improvement and perception of a cleaner presentation is welcome, a beryllium cantilever is even better for this purpose and there is a added veil of smearing that is perceived as being lifted and details are much more present in a recording, even though the leaner side of the presentation might not be to all tastes. 

I have a Gold Plated Boron Cantilever in the AT 150 MLX, with OCC Copper used on the coils, the use of OCC is still quite cutting edge as a design. I am quite keen to see a PC triple C wire as a Coil Wire, it is only found in one Commercially Branded Tonearm at present, as a coil wire it might prove to be significant and much sought after. 

I also believe there is a MM Cart' with a Beryllium Cantilever buried in storage and in a usable condition.

I do like Beryllium and have it as a Cantilever in use on a rebuilt MC in use at present, when compared to the siblings from the same Brand with a Boron cantilever the Beryllium is much clearer in the micro details and backing singers at times in the recording can often share the same vocal presence as a Lead Singer, this is not happening with Boron, Aluminium or Ruby cantilevers used by the same Cart' Brand .

I would like to think I could achieve from a Service a Boron or Beryllium Cantilever with a Esco Paratrace or FGS 'S' on the A&R Cambridge when the time arises to return to a MM.

Prior to the time that MC's are seen to be an expense not offering value, at a time when the ears are not so receptive to the qualities on offer from an MC, there is an experience of a product I have been met with on one occasion, and will be experiencing once more in the not too distant future, as a German EE I know has produced a new device, it is also looking likely that if the encounter with the new device offers a very good impression, it is a product I may even end up owning. 

The German EE has produced a Phonostage that I have as a second Phon' and one that has impressed myself and a group of other individuals it has been loaned to, most recently the German EE has produced another device that has got the attention of friends and a new route is developing to be investigated.

The Phon' produced by the German EE, is one that I have a great deal of time for, and it is only referred to as a second Phon', as my go to Phon' is Bespoke Built and produced as a result of my being instrumental in making suggestions for boutique parts to be used in the signal paths, and having been part of the audience and assessor of the SQ at the various stages of the build becoming a final design.         

This Model built to the Spec of my own one, has also been selected to be demonstrated at the Munich High End Show as product belonging to a well known Brand, but has yet get to the event as COVID has been present and events cancelled.

I believe the design for the Phon' has now evolved further and the latest design is to be a Transformer Coupled version which is to be the Brands ultimate Phon' in their range that is being produced by my friend, I am not sure when the invite will be made for my receiving a demonstration of this one, or if it is now a industry secret as the Brand is involved and I am not welcome to be privvy.

My last discussion in latte 2021 on the progress was that there are bespoke Tranx's to be produced to optimise the circuit,  the comparing the different topologies will be a good day out if the invite is offered.

The Germany Based EE, has recently produced an Energizer/Equaliser to work with the DS Audio Cart's. There is a very positive initial response to this new released model, and as a fledgling product the orders are growing, a friend has now ordered a unit to be imported to the UK to be used with their DS Audio Optical Cart's.

Another friend who is an EE and is quite keen to experience the DS Audio Cart's, now they are in the possession of information I made them aware of, there are designs being put on paper to produce their own energizer.

A Bake Off is going to be arranged to compare the DS Audio, German EE's and my EE friends energizer/equaliser, using a DS-E1, DS-003 and Grandmaster Optical Cartridge.

I am keen to experience this myself, and to how learn of how the systems influence me, I am hoping the demonstrations can be carried out on Two TT's using Tonearms with detachable Head Shells that are compatible, as I have a range of Head Shells that are duplicates for such experiences, and I would like to hear a Idler Drive and DD TT during the demonstrations.       

If the use of such a system using my friends energizer design is desirable for myself to pursue, I am sure I will be offered a model in a very basic housing for a small outlay.

The sale of the additional ancillaries that are owned and used for the MC Cart's would comfortably cover the costs incurred and enable the DS -E1 Cart' to be owned at a very reasonable cost. 

I could also run the Three Cart' Types, Optical, MC and MM in parallel, using the detachable Head shell Tonearm and the German EE Phon' with the built in MC Stage.

The Bespoke Built Phon' can then be used for Special occasions as a MM Only or with a MC if used with a Head Amp my EE friend produces and has proven that it stands strongly in the company of the SUT's it has been compared to.

As said the Journey with  Cart's does not appear to have a destination, only stop off's that are used for taking in the sights.       

@holmz The link might bring a few hours of interest with a cup of coffee in hand.

Best Coffee and not whiskey, as the latter does have a habit of making big decisions very easy, on a more than wanted frequency.

PM me if you would like a further description about the link. 

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/en/

Look forward to your update, following the addition of the kit.

@holmz I am not familiar with the SOTA Bearing but in general the designs are to have a few sacrificial parts incorporated in the Housing.

The Housing Liner Bushes are Sacrificial, and the Ball at the Base or Sometimes Head of the Spindle are Sacrificial.

A Ball can also be found to be an Interference Fit which is embedded into the spindle and will be seen as a Half Ball when witnessed.

Bush Liners are able to be produced from a material of choice to the tightest of tolerance to match the spindle that is in hand, this is very beneficial. 

There are numerous considerations for the material that can be selected for the replacement of a ball, I lean toward the lowest 'coefficient of friction' at this interface, but this can result in using a fragile material.

It is working with these components in the Bearings Assembly that usually produces an overhaul.

The Spindle is commonly found to be produced with a Case Hardening and will have to be subjected to substantial period of use in an unwanted environment to show abrasive damage or at the worst a measurable wear.

The Sump of the Bearing Housing can be prone to leach lubricant, measures are usually adopted to improve on the seal at this point, as having options on Lubricant Type can be beneficial.

Options on Viscosity of Lubricant from High to Low Viscosities are not a bad place to be. It is not uncommon to see where individuals have reported on the merits of a particular viscosity being in use.

If the Bearing assembly was optimised the impact on the replay is substantial, the Styli in the Groove will be in its best environment with an optimised spindle rotation and low mechanical energy transfer resulting.

Add P'holz to add to the management of energy transfer, well I wish I present to see your expression at the first Album Reply with the new designs in use.

   

To give a better opportunity to acquire a Plinth Material of interest. 

Search for Densified Wood Suppliers. The general rule is a Board Produced with Cross Grain Ply, 25 Layer per 25mm and boded with Phenolic Resin is the Goal.

Permali will potentially be your first discovery. This material is similar in Density @ 1400Kg per m3. It has a Damping Factor that is in keeping with P'holz, but I think it has a variance in the frequency, so dissipates energy with a difference, maybe that is down to Beech and Birch wood as the base materials.  

It has also proved useful that the DP-80 Platter is a Two-Piece Assembly, as the Lower Section interfaces with the Speed Control System and the Top Section is able to be produced from different materials.

I have a substantial Phosphor Bronze Top Section. The design enables it to be used as a Platter on other TT's.

I also have purchased a few Spare SP10 MkII and DP-80 Platters for the future and for some usage on a few trial ideas I have come across and had brought to the table for discussion with an engineer, who will qualify as a TT specialist, if a title were to be given.  

The TTS 8000 has a similar magnet speed control via a Magnet Strip but is a much harder to discover platter for sale, a few years of searching has not shown a platter on offer only from the usual search sites. The engineer I use has this TT and has had to consider using the only Patter available for this model to produce the modifications that have been under discussion.

It is a difficult call to work out how far Mod's should be introduced to Vintage TT's especially when a selection of models is at hand.

The Aurex SR 510 is the one that is begging to be given a full attention.

The Aurex has a different Speed Control, being that it is a concealed under platter incremental marked disc that is read to control speed, which is observed through a Periscope Type Lens for the stability.