One more comment on the guy's comment about directionality of dielectric material. He used the term polarity/directionality which is actually a bit of a misnomer since directionality isn't polarity at all. We know what correct polarity and inverted polarity are and directionality of fuses or cable or wire is neither.
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I can certainly see why someone might reverse the cable and think the difference in sound was due to the dielectric material, not the wire itself. Even if the tester believed wire was directional how could he separate the effects of the wire directionality from the effects of the dielectric dirctionality, assuming there was any? We have seen a similar situation with the fuse holder being given full credit for fuse directionality. We see all manner of theories that avoid the elephant in the room. |
Nice try atmasphere, but you're not really IN the conversation.
have a nice day |
What are you talking about? We already voted to keep the thread.
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fsonicsmith OP
I’m new here. I posted my OP with sincere interest. I have been informed the topic has been beaten to death previously. I did NOT intend to fan the flames of past bad blood between longstanding participants. I obviously don’t get to play referee or league commissioner. The choice is yours. I am just asking.
I’m afraid you’re mistaken. There are no flames of past bad blood between longstanding participants. Yikes! There is no bad blood at all as far as I can tell. There is some forceful debate or discussion sometimes by both sides. And a little humor to ease the tension. 😬 Nothing to be too alarmed about.
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Why in heaven's name would I report you? I'm having too much fun.
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In the heat of battle? Whoa! Hey, not only a bad speller but also a drama queen.
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fsonicsmith - you have to admit this is way more fun than AA, right?
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Peensy - Better not send it to me. What would you eat for dinner? |
A rafer wit? You mean like rafer head? Or maybe Rafer Johnson. Or vanilla rafer? Or just reefer head.
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Your English is very baaaad. |
Speaking of cartridges and tonearm wires one wonders if anyone ever tried reversing the tonearm wires to see if there’s a difference in sound. Yes, I realize this would be a royal PITA. Primarily because one might have to try reversing them one at a time. Maybe some tonearm wires come with directional arrows, who knows? That would be nice. Nevertheless, one would imagine low level signal conductors would be rather sensitive to direction.
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pennsy
Geoffkait: Your response on my SACD post ( which I removed) had me laughing to the point tears were running down my face! Your dry humor I find amusing! Anyhow, as far as this post! Walter Wegrzyn cable co! He advertises on this site! Search HDMI cables and he will come up! My point: Walter makes custom cables! His HDMI cable (with is directional ) will blow away a Audioquest diamond! I own both! Directional is because copper can be like fish scales under magnification! Certain flow provides less resistance! Actions speak louder than words! Contact Walter! This guys forgotten more than I’ll ever know! I almost exclusively use his cables for my system! My system is just short of 6 figures! Opinions are like belly buttons, everybody has one! Buy Walters cables ! You might change your directional opinion.
I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears you have drunk some bad Kool Aid. Get on board the wire directionality train. All aboard! And stop following the wrong sheep. 🐏 🐏 🐏 🐏
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OMG! This just in! From the Black Cat Cable web site,
"One can hear a slight difference or change in the quality of sound when this reversal is performed, and some people claim that this difference, prima fascie, is sufficient evidence to prove that the speaker cable itself must be more efficient (or somehow otherwise "better") when oriented in one direction vs. the other. Some industry folks have even theorized that the crystals in the metal wire’s lattice are somehow diodic (a diode is like a one-way valve, permitting signal to travel in one direction but not in the other), and the orientation of these crystals within the wire will determine the appropriate "direction" to orient your speaker cable."
>>>>Wow! Talk about misunderstanding the issue. No wonder there’s so much confusion on the subject of wire directionality. That has got to be the most egregious example of a Strawman argument I’ve seen all month. No one ever suggested that wire acts like a diode and permits the signal to travel in one direction but not the other. No way, Jose!
What we ARE saying is that the sound is better in one direction than the other, due to the *unnatural* alignment of the metal crystal structure that distorts the signal in one direction moreso than the other direction. It’s like stroking a porcupine’s back, you’ll be able to stroke the porcupine’s back easier if you stroke it in the direction the quills are pointing. Photons travel more easily and without disruption when they travel along the conductor in the direction of least resistance - resistance caused by deformation of the metal crystals. Measurable difference in resistance. The difference is caused by the crystal structure deformation. One reason amorphous conductors like carbon sound quite good is that they are symmetrical and homogeneous on the atomic level, unlike drawn copper or silver, so there is no issue with crystal structures.
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I had a ball. Too bad it wasn't fun for you. Better luck next time. I said it would be fun but I didn't say for who. |
I just Googled pathological skeptic and there was a picture of Mitch.
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jetter
Did anyone think that maybe the wire just needed to settle in at the new direction, versus it was inherently directional?
That’s exactly what HiFi Tuning used to think. They used to be directionality skeptics. About ten years go. Then they discovered the truth. Which is why they now advocate wire directionality and mark their fuses with the diode symbol. That’s also why HIFi Tuning went to all the trouble to hire someone to measure fuses and publish the data. They had an epiphany, something that has apparently eluded most folks here. Good try, though, Jitter. Very creative.
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Just point out the name is Abel, Cain slew Abel. Able was I ere I saw Elba. Carry on. Smoke if ya got em. |
Quick, somebody hit the reset button! By the way, for that very reason I wouldn't ever use balanced cables. |
fsonicsmith
What is one to do with unmarked cables, there are 4 possible combinations of orientation if my rudimentary math skills are correct and I don’t know that four combinations can be remembered well from an auditory-brain standpoint?
>>>>All you need to do is try reversing one IC or speaker cable at a time and listen at each step for an improvement or a degradation. Same for fuses, try reversing them one at a time and judge whether the sound got better or worse. This method eliminates the worry about auditory memory. It only takes a few seconds to reverse a cable. If you’re unsure whether there’s an improvement or not keep moving to the next cable or the next fuse and come back to it later.
footnote: since all wire is directional we also have some other problems. The wire in transformers is directional, all internal wiring in components is directional, all wire in capacitors, resistors, yup, directional. All internal speaker wiring and crossovers, you guessed it, directional. All power cords are directional as well as house AC wiring, not to mention tonearm wire, internal cartridge wiring, headphone cables, did I miss anything? |
Mitch
BTW, since you are newer here, I will point out the most vocal "forum expert" on this directionality subject apparently lives off the grid and listens to a Walkman, so he doesn’t even use wires.
Wires distort the sound. Didn’t you know that? Even when they’re in the right direction. I don’t drive a tank but I know its motor operates by internal combustion. Gee, I must be a tank expert. |
ghosthouse
from the Chord excerpt...
"Chord speaker cables should be connected so that the print on the cable reads in the direction of the signal. In effect, the C of Chord should be nearest the amplifier."
If print should read in the direction of signal [flow?], wouldn’t the C of Chord have to be nearest the source?
...as in Source>>>CHORD>>>Amp??
I do struggle with occasional moments of dyslexia.
Uh, is this supposed to be a trick question? 😕
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Exhibit C, the Chord Company,
Direction
Almost all speaker cables, in fact almost all audio cables, be they for digital or analogue are, in our experience, directional in that the sound will be better with the cable connected in a specific direction. Chord speaker cables should be connected so that the print on the cable reads in the direction of the signal. In effect, the C of Chord should be nearest the amplifier. The fact the cables are directional is a subject of much debate but our experience is that these differences range from slight to quite marked. One of the main areas that can be affected by the direction of the cable is timing and coherence. With the cable connected in the correct direction the sound will be more articulate and involving.
Cheers, Geoff Kait |
This just in! Are Anti Cables an example of a one man operation? Maybe. In any case this is the Anti Cable statement on wire direction. Let’s call it Exhibit B. This is taken from the FAQ page of the Anti Cables website. Since the Anti Cables are marked for the correct directionality one can assume Anti Cables, just like Audioquest, controls the manufacturing process, no?
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Wire Directionality?
As an electronic engineer I struggled with this topic for quite a while because it did not fit into any of the electrical models I have learned. It simply does not make sense that an alternating music signal should favor a direction in a wire. One of the great things about the audio hobby is that we seem to be able to hear things well before we can explain them; and just because we can’t explain something, does not mean it does not exist.
While wire directionality is not fully understood, it is clear that the molecular structure of drawn metal wire is not symmetrical and it is this physical difference which is consistent with which direction the wire sounds better. When the directionality is “backwards” there is a loss of resolution, cymbals sound like a spray-can and are truncated, voices are grainy and lack presences, and bass is less defined. When the wire directionality is “correct” the music is more relaxed, pleasant and believable. Once you hear the difference, you will never want to have to listen to wire backwards ever again.
All ANTICABLES products have the correct directionality marked with an arrow.
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If Chris has more than one fuse in his system, one reason why he might dismiss the difference between fuse directions as small is because some or all of the other fuses are in the wrong direction, hurting the sound, thus reducing the effect of flipping one fuse around. If the system has only one fuse the results should be quite pronounced, all things being equal. It would not hurt to have all the cables running in the right direction as well for a proper test. Unless the tester is aware of these variables and makes the necessary arrangements it’s like shooting blanks in the dark. I have a strict policy to never let a skeptic test anything.
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But the OP specifically excluded single ended cables from the discussion. That’s why he also included fuses in the discussion. Fuses, as far as I know, are not single ended. The OP is discussing wire per se. |
It’s always great when some excitable new person comes along and starts a new thread on wire directionality, especially when he is a skeptic. It’s a little like telling the same joke over and over to someone with a memory disorder - even though he’s heard the joke before he still laughs heartily. A good time is had by all. 😛 Let’s rock!
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Fsonicsmith
My hunch is that 95% of IC "manufacturers", particularly the one man operations of under $500 IC’s mark directionality because they think it lends the appearance of technical sophistication and legitimacy."
Question: Why on Earth would anyone in his right mind mark his ICs or speaker cables or fuses with arrows just to lend "technical sophistication and legitimacy" to his products? You know, since many or perhaps even most audiophiles are JUST LIKE YOU and don’t buy into the whole wire and fuse directionality thing. Hel-loo! Please refer to my post last week regarding PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM on one of the fuses threads. Further, Audioquest, a strong advocate of wire directionality, is hardly a one man operation. One more thing, fuses aren’t marked for direction, that’s left up to the user to decide.
In fact, your argument is similar to the argument that most high end cable manufacturers cryogenically treat all their cables to lend technical sophistication and legitimacy to their products. 😀 If that’s true how do you explain the cable manufacturers who don’t advertise they Cryo their cables? Answer at 11.
I personally think it’s just a question of how competitive you as a manufacturer wish to be and how hard you want to win Best of Show.
cheers
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