Directionality of wire

sfroyen
geoffkait: There is no law saying photons can’t travel in copper. In fact it’s the physical non symmetry of the copper ITSELF that gives rise to directionality. Hel-loo!

Indeed there is. The laws are called Maxwell’s equations and were published in the 1860s. They are fully relativistic and form the basis for all electric, optical and radio technologies. In fact they are also used to calculate the skin-effect. As I stated above, any asymmetry in the copper can only affect the electron motion -- not the photons (electromagnetic fields and photons are one and the same).

>>>>as I already said the skin effect is simply that higher frequencies travel nearer to the outer surface of the conductor. And those frequencies are very high. Obviously, by inference, the lower the frequency the closer to the center of the conductor it will travel. How does that comport with the electromagnetic wave - the audio signal - traveling outside the conductor as you claim? Hint: it doesn’t.

There is some confusion as to what the difference is between current and the audio signal. The audio signal is the electromagnetic wave. The current is traveling at the speed of electron flow in the conductor, which is virtually idle, to whit,

"Electromagnetic waves propagate in vacuum at a maximum speed of 299,792,458 meters per second . For a 12-gauge copper wire carrying a 10-ampere DC current, the speed of electric current (average electron drift velocity) is about 80 centimeters per hour or about 0.0002 meters per second."

The electromagnetic wave is the audio signal. There is no electromagnetic wave in the power cord or in the fuse where the power cord enters the amp. As I said previously, most audio frequencies travel within the IC or speaker cable wire per se, the skin effect being that very high frequencies travel nearer the surface (skin) of the metal conductor. And what carries the audio frequencies? The electromagnetic wave, of course!

There is no law saying photons can’t travel in copper. In fact it’s the physical non symmetry of the copper ITSELF that gives rise to directionality. Now, if anyone wishes to argue that "directionality" is due to electron speed differences (due to physical non symmetry of the wire) that give rise to resistance differences depending on directios I might actually consider going along with that.

sfroyen
Manufacturers of "directional" cables argue that it is the direction of the energy flow that is important (from wall to power amp, from power amp to speakers etc). This way they can market their AC power cables, speaker cables etc. They conveniently ignore the fact that the energy flow takes place in the dielectric surrounding the conductors -- including the surrounding air. Any asymmetry in the crystal structure of the conductors themselves would only impact electron motion and would likely result in undesirable diode behavior.

>>>>>>Listen, pal, we got enough trouble with skeptics of skin effect who insist all audio signals must travel BELOW the conductor surface, totally inside the conductor. We don’t need any wild theories about the energy traveling outside the conductor. If that were true we could fake out the energy and make cables entirely out of dielectric and skip the metal. The energy wouldn’t have a clue. And it would be lot cheaper, too, you know, not having the costs of super pure copper, silver or gold to worry about. In fact, you could sell cables made entirely of air.

But seriously, we already know the velocity of photons traveling through copper conductors (circa 70% speed of light in vacuum) and it’s consistent with the photons traveling through the metal conductor itself, NOT through the dielectric and NOT through air, which would be a much higher percentage of the speed of light in a vacuum, no? It's the same situation for audio over copper wires in telephony, too. The velocity over copper wires in the telephone system is consistent with the signal traveling through copper itself. Electrons? They hardly move at all so we can ignore them.

georgehifi
On Monday I am going to send a letter on my letterhead to the University of Virginia to check on your Linkdn claim of an aerospace degree from that institution and I will publish the results here. Best to you sir. For now.

+1 fsonicsmith

Got to give it to you Geoff, you got stamina. You’ve been laughed off many other tech forums, but on this one you’ve dug your heals in. Many would say you really are certifiable.

Cheers George

>>>>He who laugh last laughs best, my pointy headed friend. 😛 Wahoo Wa!

fsonicsmith OP
Mr. Kait, as I know you know, there are many threads on multiple boards about you and questioning all aspects of your background, educational, vocational, and otherwise. I am a lawyer. On Monday I am going to send a letter on my letterhead to the University of Virginia to check on your Linkdn claim of an aerospace degree from that institution and I will publish the results here. Best to you sir. For now.

>>>>I didn’t know I was so popular.

You’re a lawyer? Well, that would certainly explain your continuing confusion regarding wire directionality and alternating current.

If the glove doesn’t fit you must acquit. 😁

fsonicsmith OP
Geoffkait: "Now, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist which I happen to be..."

In addition to being a skeptic as to wire directionality, call me a skeptic on this doozy little gem. Please, give us proof! If you prove me wrong I will humbly apologize to you.

>>>>I urge you to take a gander at my post describing pathological skepticism On another thread. I think you might possibly find yourself looking in the mirror. 😛 Oh, what the heck, here’s the post from another fuse thread, the one titled Fuses fuses fuses, which I directed at one of the sheep you seem to be following, no offense to any sheep,

"George, Pathological skepticism, which we see rear its ugly head from time to time, especially on this particular fuse thread, but also many others, was addressed thoroughly in Zen and the Art of Debunkery. Perhaps you missed it. The author wrote, "Skepticism is an integral part of the scientific method, professional debunkers — often called ‘kneejerk skeptics’ — tend to be skeptics in name only, and to speak with little or no authority on the subject matter of which they are so passionately skeptical.” Sound familiar? It should.

I can certainly understand why those who were trapped in the paradigms of the 80s and 90s got left behind the real audiophile journey. Not the fake audiophile journey that most people, like yourself, apparently, are familiar with and accept as real. One reason I employ the subtitle, Advanced Audio Concepts, for my company (Machina Dynamica) is the recognition that many audiophiles, for whatever reason, view anything that is outside or beyond their ken or experience as foreign or alien. "Unexplained" as you put it. One assumes you guys down in the remote islands in the Pacific don’t get a lot of the memos the rest of us get. That might explain your confusion and anger. An audio device or tweak only needs to be sufficiently advanced to be labeled magic or BS. Do you believe cameras steal your soul?

From introduction to Zen and the Art of Debunkery:

"Seeing with humility, curiosity and fresh eyes was once the main point of science. But today it is often a different story. As the scientific enterprise has been bent toward exploitation, institutionalization, hyperspecialization and new orthodoxy, it has increasingly preoccupied itself with disconnected facts in a psychological, social and ecological vacuum. So disconnected has official science become from the greater scheme of things, that it tends to deny or disregard entire domains of reality and to satisfy itself with reducing all of life and consciousness to a dead physics.

In forgetting that all knowledge is provisional and subject to new discovery, mainstream science seems to be treading the weary path of the ossified religions it presumed to replace. Where free, dispassionate inquiry once reigned, emotions now run high in the defense of a fundamentalized “Scientific Truth.” As anomalies mount up beneath a sea of denial, defenders of the Faith and the Kingdom cling with increasing self-righteousness to the hull of a leaking paradigm. Faced with provocative evidence of things undreamt of in their philosophy, many otherwise mature scientists revert to a kind of reactive infantilism characterized by blind faith in the absoluteness of the familiar."

cheers,
Geoff Kait,
machina dynamica

fsonicsmith OP
Geoffkait: "The reason why AC cables AND fuses in AC circuits are directional is because we only hear the effects of the portion of the alternating current that is traveling TOWARD the component."

With all due respect, repeating this falsehood over and over does not make it more true. Every link in the chain of an audio system right down to the cabling involves circuits. As someone else tried to point out to you, your loudspeakers are transducers that rely on both sides of the circuit to, uh, transduce. This is why many of us have phase switching built into our preamps-so that we can correct out of phase recordings. Push-pull applies to more than just amplifiers. It is the underlying foundation of domestic electricity.

>>>>OK, push-pull, we’ll use your words. What does that mean? Push-Pull - that means you have two wires for each channel, a L channel and R channel. For each channel there is a RED and BLACK wire. When current is traveling down RED toward the speakers it’s traveling in the opposite direction on the Black and vice versa. Then the directions reverse, at a rate of 60 Hz, with the current now flowing on the RED wire AWAY from the speakers and TOWARD the speakers on BLACK. Now, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist which I happen to be to figure out that if the wires for RED and BLACK are directional then it’s best if they are oriented in the right direction, no? And if you reversed the cables you would hear a difference in sound. That’s why I say you can throw away the current traveling in the direction toward the wall because you can’t hear it. You only hear current traveling toward the speakers. Follow? And that’s why ever since what, 25 yrs go, cable manufacture who knew the score, Audioquest, Goertz, Anti Cables, whoever, marked their cables with directional ARROWS. It's the same reason fuses in AC circuits are directional and why power cords are directional.

smikell
Forgetting audio signal connectors for a second, and commenting strictly on AC power cables ONLY, I find the whole subject silly and mute based on one simple fact. AC is alternating current, as in it changes direction 120 times a second, or sixty cycles.

>>>>>We’ve already addressed this apparent contradiction earlier in the thread. The reason why AC cables AND fuses in AC circuits are directional is because we only hear the effects of the portion of the alternating current that is traveling TOWARD the component. We do not hear the effects of the portion of the current traveling toward the wall outlet, away from the component. This is not to say there aren’t other distortions involved besides those related to directionality. Besides the whole subject is far from mute. 😀

audioman58
I have tested directional wires, all this means is the wire was drawn and Angeles
In that direction , and through my Electrostats speakers most any changes can be heard . Slightly better a bit more pronounced . BUT, if you leave opposite for 24 hours everything is pretty much =. It is Not a permanent change, Cryogenic immersion is a permanent change for example and + result For example.

>>>>The problem with your test is that when you disrupt the sensitive physical/electrical interface of the cable connections when reversing cables it takes at least two days to reestablish those interfaces. So any conclusions you might draw initially within the first 24 hours should be disregarded. Same with Cryo, you should never judge the effects prematurely since it can take up to a week for the materials involved to recover from the thermal shock of Cryo.

Also, since cables that have been in use for MANY YEARS exhibit directionality - when the sensitivity of physical/electrical interfaces are observed - obviously the change is permanent. Ditto for fuses, even stock fuses, that have been in use for MANY YEARS. They exhibit directionality when reversed, for better or worse, and MAINTAIN that directionality. HiFi Tuning used to think their fuses would eventually break in whichever direction they were installed. Later they recanted and now think their fuses, and all fuses, are directional, directional in the PERMANENT sense. Which is why they mark their fuses with a diode symbol.

Almarg
Note, however, that for the reasons I stated earlier in this thread I for one do not totally rule out the possibility of wires (as used in cables) being intrinsically directional in **some** applications, to at least a small degree. In contrast to my opinion about fuses.

That’s preposterous. Why on Earth would you believe cables can be directional but not fuses? I trust you’re referring to unshielded cables, NOT balanced cables or single ended cables. What physically is going on with cables to make them directional? Oh, no! You’re not going to say the directionality is caused by how the RCA connector is reinserted into the RCA jack, are you? You know, the old "fuse holder" argument? I especially like your characterization of the effects as "at least to a small degree" even though you’ve never actually tried it or heard it. That’s awful decent of you, you big smoothie.

georgehifi
stfroth: And, dude, what is your fascination with sheep?

He maybe a New Zealander? They have a thing with sheep.

>>>I knew we'd eventually find something about which you're knowledgeable. Thanks for your expertise! 🐏🚶

stfroth, 

I feel your pain. Feel free to unload your angst and disappointment here any time. My door is always open. 

I really am sorry you were unable to get good results with wire directionality. Please give my condolences to your ears.

stfoth
Al--Thanks. I read some portions of the fuse thread, but, to be frank, I couldn’t make it all the way through.

Geoff--You have a dizzying intellect.

>>>>>OK.....

Geoffkait:"Positive results are not due to any of the variables, they are obtained in SPITE of them. See the difference?"

--I don’t. It’s a circular (or backwards) proposition that presumes the truth of the cause and of the result.

>>>>Are you pulling my leg?

"Assume for a moment that directionality is real. Then the few audiophiles who get negative results MUST do so because of some error or hearing issue or one or more of the other reasons I’ve already listed."

--Sort of.

Geoffkait: "By the way, when can we expect your test and test results?"

--I offer no such thing to anyone. I’m a curious simpleton and can only offer that I’ve tried reversing nearly all of my reversible wiring and cabling in five different setups (more, if variations after swapping gear count) and could discern no audible difference.

>>>>>Oh, well, C’est la vie. Feel free to consult my list of possible stumbling blocks where you went wrong.

Assume God exists, in the ultimate "appeal to authority," and God told the directionality folks, "It’s all a lie, there is no such thing as an inherent audible directionality in cabling. It was written by the devil’s left hand. I should know." Then, God also told the skeptical folks, "Yes, indeed. All cabling carries within it the glory of an audible improvement in one direction v. the other. I should know."

Who would be more likely to believe God’s word?

>>>>>Heavy. The ultimate naysayer argument. Is God following the wrong sheep, too?

🐑 🐑 🐑 🐑 🐑 🚶

I see your problem. Positive results are not due to any of the variables, they are obtained in SPITE of them. See the difference? Assume for a moment that directionality is real. Then the few audiophiles who get negative results MUST do so because of some error or hearing issue or one or more of the other reasons I’ve already listed. By the way, when can we expect your test and test results?

stfoth
Geoff--hasn’t a lot of this discussion, from both "sides," illustrated the lack of predictability, particularly with so many variables--some difficult or arguably impossible to control for?

>>>>>I think you might possibly be misunderstanding. No offense. There are variables associated with tests which explain negative results as I just got threw describing. There is no reason to second guess or explain positive results, however. Since there are, what, a thousand times more positive results than negative ones, at least, we can throw out the negative ones. Remember most skeptics never get down to brass tacks and try aftermarket fuses or ever try reversing cables. They would rather fight than switch. 😀
Fair enough?

Geoffkait: "With so many variables involved, you can see why I say, in the context of so many positive results, it’s probably best to just throw out the negative results. They are outliers."

One might argue just the opposite, as well.

>>>>>>It would be a bad argument, or an illogical one, since positive results are more *important* than negative ones since, you know, even if there were some obstacles in the way the results were still positive. not to mention there were SO MANY positive results. Nothing succeeds like success and failure is no success at all.

It seems that many of the skeptics won’t be convinced without scientific proof. If that proof materialized, I suspect many would "believe." Some, may still deny, find fault with the method, or raise the bar. For the "pro" directionality folks, what would it take to convince them that there isn’t actually

>>>>>I suspect, based on this debate and many others I have seen or been involved in, you cannot change the mind of the determined skeptic - no matter what you do. That’s why this thread has been laboring along for so long. Did you happen to catch my post where I defined pathological skepticism?

I suspect a lot of this is simply a case of, you know, people following the wrong sheep.

🐑 🐑 🐑 🐑 🚶

Wake up and smell the coffee. ☕️

almarg
Stfoth 8-2-2017
Perhaps this has been adequately and succinctly discussed elsewhere, but, assuming all cables are inherently directional with sound differences from one way to the other, what might be some reasons someone, with a good trained ear with a highly resolving setup and with no skin in the game, wouldn’t be able to hear a difference?

If we assume as your question posits that all cables are inherently directional, IMO the key to obtaining an answer would be obtaining an understanding of **why** such an effect may occur. And as I said in an earlier post, IMO the least implausible explanation I have seen is the one stated by Audioquest.

>>>>Rather than say someone’s explanation is not plausible how about telling us an explanation that is plausible.

I doubt that any of us are in a position to say conclusively one way or the other whether the effect claimed by Audioquest is likely to be great enough in degree to be audibly significant in some or many systems. But let’s assume that it is.

>>>>That’s mighty decent of you.

The explanation revolves around electrical noise. Sensitivity to electrical noise that may be present will be highly dependent on the specific designs of the components, cables, and system that are involved, on how AC power is distributed to the various components, on how the components and cables are physically arranged, and on the noise environment at the particular location. And it will be highly dependent on the spectral composition (frequency distribution) as well as the amplitudes of whatever noise may be present.

>>>>Well, if he had said noise plus distortion would you be on board?

As I said in one of my previous posts in this thread, noise effects tend to have little if any predictability, and tend to be highly system and even location dependent.

>>>>>But he’s not talking about random or Gaussian noise, he’s talking about noise (and distortion) produced by the wire in one direction moreso than the other direction. You’re quibbling.

It should be noted, finally, that none of these factors have any particular correlation with the sonic quality or musical resolution of the system, or with the hearing acuity of the particular listener.

>>>>>>None of what factors? Noise and distortion? Obviously what Audioquest means and what HiFi Tuning means is that the difference in sound quality IS PREDICTABLE and not random. You’re being uh, purposefully obtuse. Differences in noise plus distortion do actually correlate with what people report for cables and fuses in terms of directionality.

stfoth
Geoff--Perhaps this has been adequately and succinctly discussed elsewhere, but, assuming all cables are inherently directional with sound differences from one way to the other, what might be some reasons someone, with a good trained ear with a highly resolving setup and with no skin in the game, wouldn’t be able to hear a difference?

--I’m not trying to bait you. I may be a skeptic, but I’m genuinely interested.

>>>>>Of course you would expect a better chance of success when all the variables are under control. So, the question is how many VARIABLES are involved in what might appear to be a simple and straightforward test of fuse or cable directionality? You mentioned THREE, well, actually FOUR variables already, making my job easier 😀 - a trained ear, system set up and resolution (actually two different things, since there can be errors somewhere in the system unbeknownst to the tester, e.g., out of phase, out of absolute polarity, etc.), and motivation of the tester (does he have an axe to grind, is he a manufacturer?). By the way, who determines whether a particular system is resolving enough, the tester? The last time I checked all audiophiles thought their systems were highly resolving. 😛

I would add to the list of variables, (1) whether the tester followed instructions correctly, (2) whether the tester’s hearing is impaired for some known or unknown reason, (3) whether the tester is "psyched out" by the pressure of having to get results and or publish them on this site or a victim of the dreaded reverse expectation bias 😁, and (4) the recordings used for the test - for example, many CDs are in reverse absolute polarity or aggressively compressed. I suppose you can add time of day and weather conditions and things of that nature to the list of variables. Probably others, too. With so many variables involved, you can see why I say, in the context of so many positive results, it’s probably best to just throw out the negative results. They are outliers.

Never said it did work for everyone. That's the way the cookie crumbles. We've been over that already, ad nauseum. There are many reason why audiophiles sometimes don't get the results they were looking for. Because the thing under test is a hoax or a dud or any such thing is not one of those reasons, however. It's like just about anything, any cable, any tweak, in audio - you can always find someone who doesn't get good results. C'est la vie mon Cherie. You just keep your fingers crossed it's not the dude who is about to review your product for a major online audio publication. 😬

Terry
I would point out that lots of people believe things without foundation. See especially the Nazi’s strategy of The Big Lie, and note how it has been broadly applied in the modern world.

But that’s different from someone who experiments and finds out something for himself. For those who have heard fuses and reversing fuses for themselves there is foundation for them to believe. The Big Lie analogy would actually be more properly applied to naysayers of fuses or wire directivity, who accept at face value when someone says, I’m a scientist and you can believe me when I say the laws of physics forbid it. Or, when someone says, I have seen no evidence of wire directionality at NASA, in digital electronic design labs or military weapon systems.

georgehifi
Stereophile presented microscopic photos of the crystal structure and they were arrow shaped and lined up nose to tail, naturally the arrow head was pointed, and was considered as the flow direction.

>>>>>That’s weird. I would have thought the flow direction would be the opposite, the EM wave would travel more easily - I.e., with less resistance - in the head to tail direction. That direction would present a smoother pathway. Like stroking the quills of a porcupine in the direction of the quill tips, not the opposite direction, against the quill tips.

Sebrof, I think I know. I went into the archives and scanned many of your posts. Now I remember you. 😀

sebrof
There are a couple of guys here on A-Gon that, when I see they posted in a thread, even if the topic is of no interest to me I usually click and read. I often learn something.

There are a couple of guys here on A-Gon that, when I see they posted in a thread, even if the topic is something I may be interested in I pass on by because I know the thread has, or quickly will, become gibberish.

It's not often I see them all in the same thread, so this thread is kinda weird as it pegs back and forth...Bam, good info...Bam, nonsense...Bam, good info...

>>>>What a tease!

Ivan
True enough. Caveat emptor. Wouldn’t have it any other way, myself.

Well, actually, ironically enough, that expression caveat emptor does NOT apply to fuses as much as people think, you know, since most aftermarket fuses come with a 30 day guarantee, and at least one aftermarket fuse comes with 60 day guarantee. Hel- loo! Heck, you’d have be stupid not to buy aftermarket fuses. Not to mention the Black fuse is being sold right now as we speak at the ridiculous price of three for the price of two. Hmmm, are they getting ready to release a new fuse?

georgehifi

1: Every component you have has been designed using measurements.

2: Any changes to the sound the designer needed to make was done using measurements then listened to.

3: There is no voodoo in designing equipment by any designer of any component you have in your system.

Cheers George

>>>>Well, yes and no. For example John Curl and Bob Crump had a process for amplifier and preamplifier development which was essentially John would design the circuits, the third individual Thompson did the topology, then, now get this, Bob Crump would try different brands of capacitors (that all had the same value and precision!) for example or volume control pots or whatever and pick the one that sounds best. So, obviously, it's not all about measurements. Not at all! Stop following the wrong sheep! 🐏 🐏 🐏 🐏 🚶

Ivan, I don’t know which Alan Maher products are giving you conniptions but if they are crystal based devices then one thing you might try, since crystals should really be "reconditioned" periodically as they lose effectiveness over time and get all like gnarly. They could hurt the sound if placed in non-ideal locations. So, if there are crystals inside remove them and do any or all of the following: wash them for 2 minutes under cold tap water, Demagnetize them using any type of demagnetizer, roll them around and squeeze them in the palms of your hands for 2 minutes, expose them to direct bright sunlight for 2 hours. 🌞

Let’s clear up one thing. The accusation of hype and unsubstantiated claims is a common pseudo skeptic ploy but be aware there’s actually nothing wrong with marketing one’s product, even using hyperbole or what Judge Judy refers to as puffing. You know, like World’s Best Coffee. Or, "you will hear things in your records you never realized were there."

Audio manufacturers, perhaps in particular tweak manufacturers, are under NO OBLIGATION to reveal measurements or method of operation or prove the operation of their products. That they are under any such obligation is an old wives’ tale perpetrated by naysayers and pseudo skeptics who employ that tactic all the time as if it means something, like bringing up controlled bind tests as if some device or tweak under would be proven a hoax if it were subjected to controlled blind tests.

Getting back to reality, the manufacturer might not know how his particular product works. Or he may wish to keep the information under his vest. In fact, as I just pointed out earlier, HiFi Tuning admits perhaps even a little sheepishly 🐑 🐑 on their web site that measured data of fuses doesn’t really completely explain the relatively large differences heard in listening tests. Hel-loo! But at least they tried. You know, unlike pseudo skeptics.

Re 1936 Michigan Study on wire directionality vs conductivity. Quick synopsis: Old news and contributes little to what we know. We already know that the measured differences in wire conductivity are quite small from the fuse measurement data on the HiFi Tuning website. We also know that the small differences don’t really seem to completely account for the (relatively larger) sonic differences the folks at HiFi Tuning heard when flipping fuses; in fact they - HiFi Tuning -acknowledge that apparent discrepancy in the data sheets. Nevertheless there are measured differences in resistance/conductivity. If wire wasn’t directional wouldn’t one expect no differences at all? Remember, the whole issue is SOUND QUALITY. So wouldn’t it make more sense if skeptics, in order to be more thorough and get to the bottom of this, actually performanced their own LISTENING TESTS? The hallmark of real skepticism is the curiosity and desire to experiment and test for one’s self.

bdp24
Doesn’t Audioquest make stranded cables? To make them directional, they have to keep track of the direction of each single strand, all throughout the assembly of each cable. Wow, that can’t be easy.

I don’t think it would be too difficult. You just need a plan. Just like you need a plan for unstranded solid core cables, and a plan for cables with multiple insulated solid core conductors. It’s not rocket science. You can establish correct direction of the tiny wire, or any wire, by measuring resistance of a length of wire as it comes off the giant spool. Case solved!

Well, of course wire directionality wouldn’t show up anywhere except among audiophiles because wire directionality is really defined as the reason wires, cables and fuses SOUND better in one direction than the other. SOUND better in the artistic or sensual or subjective sense. It’s an audiophile thang! Hel-loo! Clever Little Clocks, green pens, Schumann frequency generators, tiny little bowl resonators, crystals for damping -- none of those things are discussed at NASA or Boeing or Lockheed Martin or computer labs, or (whisper)...the Government... either. Gee, I wonder why not.

jea48
Can’t speak for stranded wire. (There in multiple strands of uninsulated wires grouped together under a common insulating covering). I do not have any personal listening experience with stranded wire.  I can only speak for solid core wire.

Thanks. Do you know anyone who can?

😛

Yes, I know him well enough to read between the lines.

Hmmmm, I wonder...are skeptics of wire and fuse directionality also skeptical of other controversial tweaks? Or is it just wire and fuse directionality that irks them? In addition one wonders if these skeptics are full time skeptics or just "weekend skeptics." Do the fuse skeptics accept, for example, the Warren Commission Report on the assassination of JFK, you know, something that’s obviously controversial, and obviously of more import than a little old audiophile fuse? Or the 9/11 Final Report which also is controversial and of much greater import than mere fuses.

stfoth
Geoff--how about audible directionality in glass optical "cable?"

I wouldn't think so. I pointed out recently on this thread that cables like those that employ carbon conductors shouldn't exhibit directionality. Since glass is homogeneous it should not exhibit directionality. Metal conductors, you know, like copper, silver and gold, etc. have crystal structures and thus are not amorphous, especially after the metal wires have been drawn.

koestner
Put me in the camp with those that can hear when some ICs or speaker cables are reversed. (Those using solid core wire).
Is the difference huge? NO. Subtle? Yes. But enough so, I prefer the direction that sounds best to my ears. As always, YMMV.

Which raises another question. If one buys into the proposition that unshielded solid core cables are directional does that necessarily mean stranded cables are also directional? Extra credit: if fuses in AC circuits are directional does that mean power cords are also directional? Even though most power cords comprise stranded conductors.
.

almarg
Stfoth, for what it’s worth I spent a bit more than three decades designing and managing design of high tech electronics for use in military aircraft, and in my experience the issue of wire directionality was never even mentioned, much less addressed in some manner.
Regards,
-- Al

Gold Star for the best Appeal to Authority so far this week. ⭐️. I also like the logic of, it was never mentioned so it must not exist. Terrific example of a logical fallacy, much appreciated!

But Al, the question does not hinge on whether you think the effect is subtle or whether you would lose any sleep over it. Once again you seem to be arguing just to argue. As with your customary assertion, "well, maybe there is some directionality in wire." It doesn’t matter whether you think it might be too subtle for you to hear. Many audiophiles hear directionality very distinctly. But like anything audio related, the effects vary. For example, the effect of reversing one of many fuses will be masked by the fact some of the other fuses are still in the wrong direction. Obviously there will always be a couple of folks who can’t hear it at all. C’est la vie.

fsonicsmith OP
Someone said, "Ok, back to your corners guys... Let’s say wire has a direction created from the formation of the wire, and in theory will pass the signal better one direction vs. the other. But wait... music signal is all AC, so whichever way you place the wire it’s still going to be incorrect 1/2 the time, and correct the other half. It’s kind of like a tug-o-war where each side pulls the center ribbon back and forth 20-20,000 times per second. It’s a lot of work, but unless one side is declared the winner, it makes no difference which way you hook up the wire."

Bingo-exactly what Chris Sommovigo is saying, I believe.Exactly why even with shield to ground schemes, Chris’ take made me re-think the entire concept of directionality. If the fish scale on wire surfaces theory espoused by AQ and others were correct, we are left to pre-suppose that any competent producer of balanced cables checks the grain structure before assembling the connectors. I doubt that very much. I don’t doubt that there may be a subtle difference with RCA’s when you switch them. Very subtle. Sticking one harmonic dot on the ceiling kind of subtle. It could be due to any number of other things than extruding/grain structure such as dialectric anomalies (inconsistent contact or thickness or properties on a microscopic level), solder joints/connections, or other.

>>>>>>Whether you you believe the audio signal is alternating, or you believe the current is alternating or whether you believe the voltage is alternating, you can disregard the signal or current or voltage that’s traveling in the direction toward the source. The only portion that’s audible is the portion that’s traveling toward the speakers. That’s why you can hear wire directionality in AC circuits just like DC circuits. Which is what HiFi Tuning and I have been saying all along. The so called AC argument is the oldest pseudo skeptic argument against wire directionality but in fact doesn’t really mean anything. It’s a nothing burger! 🍔 Wake up and smell the coffee! Sorry, no Bingo.

By the way, your arguments regarding RCAs and harmonic dots are not persuasive or germane to the discussion. What you doubt is unimportant. No offense to you personally.

Wasn’t Korea where they make the smartphones that kept blowing up last year? You know, Samsung. I kind doubt anyone’s opinion right off the bat who’s opinions are described as having a "high degree of confidence" or representing the pinnacle of high end audio. Gimme a break! That’s such an obvious Appeal to Authority it’s not funny.
Are you trying to be controversial? Don't we have enough controversy already? 😀

kosst_amojan
I’m pretty sure the DSM has a diagnostic name for those who hear things that have no basis in reality. It’s called schizophrenia.

>>>Actually, that’s incorrect. Pathological skeptics are unable or unwilling to hear things that are really there. The name of that particular mental disorder is bipolar disorder. 👥 Or maybe they’re just superstitious, like George. Hey, George it’s OK to come out now. The war has been over for many decades. George, George, George of the Jungle, strong as he can be, Ahhh, Watch out for that tree!

If you’re trying to appear slow witted you’re doing an excellent job.

The Audioholics article is apparently 13 years old yet contains the same misstatements of the facts and the usual appeals to "reason" and double blind testing as today’s uber skeptics. 13 years old but still fresh as a daisy! My favorite Audioholics response? This gem: "Let’s not forget that an audio signal is AC, and effectively random from a physical perspective. Nothing can align to a random signal by being anything other than random."

Cut me some slack, Jack!

blindjim wrote,

"Though, Power Cords especially. Why?
Because you can not reverse the ends. They don’t fit. Even if you push really hard!!"

>>>>Power cords are like fuses in an AC circuit. I.e., they’re directional. Of course I’m not (rpt not) suggesting you can flip a power cord around like a fuse, obviously you can't. But what I AM saying is that manufacturers should be AWARE that wire is directional, all wire, just like Audioquest, to name one, states. And like HiFi Tuning states. Even the teeny tiny strands of wire in stranded cables and power cords are directional. Thus, IF the manufacturer is AWARE of wire directionality AND he CONTROLS the manufacturing process - so when it comes time to affix the connectors on the power cord - he knows which end is which. Follow?

blindjim wrote,

"Some of this stuff is so simple and so easy to get to the truth."

>>>>>I always get a little bit suspicious when a long post starts out with the word truth in the first sentence and, "I’ve got decades of experience," in the next breath. This seems to be simply a case where someone barged into the thread without reading the preliminary discussions on this thread. Sometimes naysayers barge in where angels fear to tread.

georgehifi
but nobody has ever measured directional wire or fuses. I’d say that’s because it doesn’t exist. Pathological denial of the existence of a phenomenon beyond measurement? I guess if rational thought is pathological, I’m guilty.
+1, it’s all voodoo, led by you know who.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/81/6b/b2/816bb2ce803a876c3b46601f55730cac.jpg

>>>>More tripe served up fresh by the leader of the pathological peanut gallery. 🐒 🐒 🐒 🐒

Why are are people on remote islands in the Pacific so superstitious? Who knows?

kosst_amojan
138 posts
08-21-2017 10:16pm
Huh.... Can’t measure it? That’s the problem with things that exist purely in your head, isn’t it? I mean, we live in a say when we can study the most microscopic, nuanced phenomenon in the universe with obscene precision, but nobody has ever measured directional wire or fuses. I’d say that’s because it doesn’t exist. Pathological denial of the existence of a phenomenon beyond measurement? I guess if rational thought is pathological, I’m guilty.

What a drama queen! You just can’t read. Directionality has already been measured. If you would do your homework you’d know that. What I meant was, if you would slow down and use your ears instead of your mouth, is that you naysayers, specifically, won’t (rpt won't) measure it. You know, use a volt ohm meter and measure the resistance. Then you would know. Follow? But, no you pathological naysayers would rather keep yakking. Is that rational?

It’s a shame Bob didn’t live long enough to see the HiFi Tuning data sheets on fuse directionality. Everyone talks about wire directionality but no one does anything about it. If only Bob and Curl had experimented with fuse direction back then they would have known the answer.

Question to self: can’t anyone measure the resistance (conductivity) of a cable or wire or fuse in both directions? Duh! Why don’t they? They’d rather fight than switch. The pathological skeptics seem to be getting up a full head of steam. Think I'll take cover. 

🐑 🐑 🐑 🐑 🚶 🚶 🚶

Huh? Not sure what you guys are arguing about. Obviously Bob thinks wire per se is very directional. He actually said extremely directional. The only question is if he’s right the way he places the directional wires in the cable - one wire in one direction and the other wire in the opposite direction. Why would he *intentionally* construct a cable to be non-optimal knowing wire is very directional? He wouldn’t. As I’ve stated previously, both wires should actualy be in the same direction, not opposite directions. You do not (rpt not) have to worry about any signal or current or voltage moving toward the wall outlet. Only the ones moving toward the speakers. That’s why fuses which have only a single wire are directional in AC circuits.

Of the Curl, Thompson, Crump CTC company members Bob had (by far) the best ears. That’s why his primary job at CTC was deciding which capacitors to use, which wire to use, which cables to use for the very advanced CTC Blowtorch preamp and the Bar B Que amplifier, the precursor of the JC 1 amp. Curl was the circuit guy, Thompson the topology guy. I was with Curl and Crump twice at CES, isolating the electronics including the Number Cruncher DAC with my Sub Hertz Nimbus iso platform.

Geez, somebody didn't get the memo. They're not electrons. Hel-loo!

Note: there is no reason why stranded cables shouldn’t also be "very directional," since even teeny tiny wires suffer the same indignities when being pulled through the final die as thicker wires -- assuming all the tiny little strands of wire are all pointed in the same direction, resistance wise. I suspect that is probably the case since it doesn’t make sense that stranded cables would be constructed any other way, in a random way. But who knows? Be that as it may, directionality of stranded cables can be controlled during manufacture just like solid core cables. Power cords which I’m pretty sure are usually stranded should be controlled for directionality just like fuses in AC circuits, right?