Is there any reason to support the idea that cables, interconnects or any other kind of wiring can be considered directional? It seems that the theory is that carrying current will alter the molecular structure of the wire. I can't find anything that supports this other than in the case of extreme temperature variation. Cryo seems to be a common treatment for wire nowadays. Extreme heat would do something as well, just nothing favorable. No idea if cryo treatment works but who knows. Back to the question, can using the wires in one direction or another actually affect it's performance? Thanks for any thoughts. I do abide by the arrows when I have them. I "mostly" follow directions but I have pondered over this one every time I hook up a pair.
I think the answer is instantly. The switch is opened, Games over.
This was in response to what happens when a light is switched off, and of course the answer given is so wrong on so many levels!
When the light is on, it is because power is delivered in an electrical circuit featured by voltage and current - likely to be direct current in a car or alternating current in a home. When the current is suddenly interrupted because the switch is thrown, electrical pressure builds up at the switch. This pressure is known as voltage. If the current was big enough, the voltage becomes high enough to ionise the surrounding air and cause sparks at the switch contacts.
This is precisely the phenomenon used by older car ignition systems to generate very high voltages from 12-Volt DC electrical systems.
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Context, of my quote, you used in your post above:
Okay, I got a simpler question, what if the load is disconnected before the energy gets there, what happens to that energy?
Can’t happen... The energy travels at near the speed of light. It’s at the light bulb the instant the contact closure completes the circuit... It’s that Fast!
Open the switch you break the voltage feeding the light bulb. Instantly, no light.
If you believe the electrons are moving back and forth in the wire and the electrons are what makes the light bulb light then you might have to wait quite while for the bulb to light up when you flip the switch on....
~ ~ ~
With that out of the way....
Source, 120Vac.
Load, 120V 100W incandescent light bulb.
Simple circuit,
120Vac source, SPST snap switch to disconnect source from load.
Close switch, a completed closed circuit is created.
Instantly EM wave energy flows in one direction >>>, at near the speed of light, from the source and is absorbed by the tungsten filament in the bulb. The energy is not consumed by the filament but rather is converted to to some other form of energy. Therein heat and light.
The event can’t happen unless there is a difference of potential, voltage, applied across both ends of tungsten filament in the bulb. Break the circuit, No longer a difference of potential, voltage, applied to the tungsten filament. Game over! No more light.
(I left out the part of the involvement of current, electric fields, and magnetic fields. All are needed to create the energy electromagnetic wave. Just trying to simplify the process.)
I don’t know what kind of lighting you have in, say, above a bathroom vanity in your home. If The light fixture uses incandescent light bulbs just go to the bathroom flip the wall switch on. Light instantly. Flip the switch off. Light’s gone instantly.
Electricity doesn’t work like water in in a garden hose. Water hose, turn off the faucet and water will continue running out of the hose. Electricity don’t work that way.
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As for this:
This is precisely the phenomenon used by older car ignition systems to generate very high voltages from 12-Volt DC electrical systems.
Keeping it simple I’ll use a vehicles back when the electrical system, battery, was 6Vdc.
A high voltage coil is what stepped up 6Vdc to a high voltage for the spark plugs.I can’t remember how many thousands of volts it was back then.
The coil was, to me, a step up autotransformer. IF 6VDC was directly connected to the 6V pos and neg terminals on the coil it would work like an inductor. Not a transformer. A transformer only works when connected to an AC source. OR a pulsating DC voltage. So if you took the battery lead that feeds the neg terminal on the coil and momentarily touched it to the neg terminal on the coil, (completing the circuit), then remove the lead, (breaking the circuit) a high voltage would be induced on the high voltage winding. Electromagnet induction...
And that is the basics of how it works.
Of course for the ignition system of the vehicle there is a lot more to it. The thing that’s used to pulsate, make - and - break the 6Vdc to the coil primary winding is a spring loaded open and close set of "Points", contacts. A Condenser is wired across the set of contacts to extend the life of the contacts. There is a shaft on the distributor that is mechanically driven by the engine camshaft. It’s all about Timing! The distributor shaft has lobs on it that open and close the Points. There is a lot more to what goes on, but I’ll stop here...
@rodman99999What would the high voltage output of the coil look like on a engine diagnostic scope? Example... A choppy, say, the top half of an AC sine wave? Never really thought about it...
The ’S’ stands for Sinousoidal electric field, which when combined with it’s magnetic field, results in the Poynting vector that determines the direction and strength of an electromagnetic wave’s energy* flow.
*our systems’ AC or musical signals
Does the green arrows represent the signal traveling from the source to the load through the dielectric insulation?
Is the EM wave the signal, or does the EM carry the signal? Or is the signal embedded in the EM wave?
Illustration of electromagnetic power flow inside a coaxial cable according to the Poynting vector S, calculated using the electric field E (due to the voltage V) and the magnetic field H (due to current I).
S represents the signal. Yes?
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@rodman99999, I’ve used that Link many times trying to prove a point.
Imo, a SPDIF digital coax cable with a solid center conductor with RCA plugs is one of the best cables to use to check for cable directionality.
It would seem to me that the best construction using drawn cable would be that each of the two conductors be a pair of wires, arranged in opposing directions to minimize the grain structure distortion.
Does anyone know of a manufacturer that does this - if not does anyone want to start a business?
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Bob Crump did.
Posted by rcrump on September 30, 2000 at 06:45:41
Solid core wire is extremely directional so just mark the end with some masking tape as it comes off the spool. Orient the wires so you have piece of masking tape at either end and terminate the wires. Throw it on a MOBIE or whatever overnight and then listen to it noting which way gives the highest image height. This is the correct orientation.
If you run the signal and return wires in the same direction you will end up with hot spots in the stage, normally at or close to the speakers, low image height and have a gaping hole in the middle of the stage...Keep in mind I am referring to the sound of the stage (reflections) not the individual instruments spread across the stage....Interconnects or speaker wires that have pianos wandering all over the stage normally have their signal and return going in the same direction....
However, to the dismay of audiophiles, and the profit margin of cable manufacturers, the velocity of the wave along the wire is dependent of the electrical characteristics of the wire - which are dependent on the physical properties of the cable structure - material, coating, size, dielectric properties of the insulation, braiding - AND THE FREQUENCY OF THE DRIVING SOURCE.
So, if the wave velocity is strongly dependent on the frequency then the complex waveform of the audio signal will be more distorted. There will always be some distortion, the magnitude of which depends on cable length, and audiophile manufacturers will attempt to minimize the distortion - or try to make it euphonic.
dielectric properties of the insulation,
The signal travels in the spaces between the conductors. Therein through the dielectric insulation but not confined by the dielectric insulation, (unless the cable is shielded.)
I believe that’s why Teflon, for one, is used instead of cheap PVC insulation.
And I believe it helps control this:
So, if the wave velocity is strongly dependent on the frequency then the complex waveform of the audio signal will be more distorted. There will always be some distortion, the magnitude of which depends on cable length, and audiophile manufacturers will attempt to minimize the distortion - or try to make it euphonic.
I’ve referenced this I don’t know many times over the years. The article is from 1993. Old yes. Wires have been around a lot longer than that.
Actual measurements for those that say, "If it can’t be measured then it can’t be true."
After measuring the first two products (the PS Lambda and the Panasonic SV-3700), I went back and repeated my measurements to make sure the analyzer was giving consistent results, and that my test setup was correct. When I remeasured the SV-3700, I got about half the jitter than when I first measured it!
What caused this reduction in measured jitter?
Changing the direction of the digital interconnect between the transport and the jitter analyzer.
This phenomenon was easily repeatable: put the cable in one direction and read the RMS jitter voltage, then reverse the cable direction and watch the RMS jitter voltage drop. Although I’d heard differences in digital-cable directionality, I was surprised the difference in jitter was so easily measurable—and that the jitter difference was nearly double.
To confirm this phenomenon, I repeated the test five times each on three different digital interconnects. One was a generic audio cable, the other two were Mod Squad Wonder Link and Aural Symphonics Digital Standard, both highly regarded cables specifically designed for digital transmission. The generic cable wasn’t directional: it produced the same high jitter in either direction. But both the Wonder Link and the Aural Symphonics had lower jitter levels overall, but different jitter levels depending on their direction. Moreover, the generic cable had higher jitter than either of the two premium cables—even in the latters’ "high-jitter" direction.
Fig.8 shows the jitter difference between cable direction in Wonder Link using the Panasonic ’3700 as the source (the difference was about the same in the Aural Symphonics). Note that, at these high levels, small differences in the trace are significant. Between "10m" and "0.1" on the vertical scale, each horizontal division is 100ps. The overall RMS jitter was 4050ps with the Wonder Link connected in one direction, and 2700ps with the cable reversed.
JMHO, there can’t be an honest discussion of cable directionality if one believes the signal travels back and forth from the source to the load. Especially at near the speed of light in a vacuum.
Were it the DC voltage/current, from an amp's power supply, modulated by the amp's output devices, into an amplified musical signal; it would appear much more complex, but: still a sinusoidal wave.
*outside the dielectric, in the discussed model
Complex is an understatement.
I can't understand how anyone could think the signal could travel back and forth in the wire.
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That voltage potential exists, outside of a hot AC lead's conductor/cabling, even without a closed circuit, is why a non-contact voltage detector can work.
The electric field around the wire.
Without the electric field around the wire a non-contact voltage detector Couldn't work A closed circuit is not needed either.
I watched the video on cable directionality. The guy thinks the signal travels back and forth in the wire. It doesn’t. If it did then cheap PVC insulation would be all that is needed for the dielectric used to cover the bare wire.
This post From an Agon member.
The speaker transducer moves forward and backward according to EMF acting on the voice coil - see Faraday’s law and Maxwells equations - so both +ve and -ve current direction along the speaker wire causes transducer movement.
Response from an Agon member that taught this stuff, at the associate degree level..
Again, it has nothing to do with we commonly call "current" which most visualize as electrons flowing back and forth. It simply doesn’t work that way. There is an electro-magnetic wave that transfers energy to the coil of the speaker. If applied to a resistor it creates heat. If applied to an inductor (coil) it creates a constantly changing magnetic field which pushes and pulls against a fixed magnet creating motion. Those stuck in a world of flowing electrons are just that, stuck there. Energy flows, electrons do not.
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I don’t know why cables are directional. I just know some are.
I have a pair of Clear Day Cables solid silver conductor non shielded single ended RCA interconnects that are definitely directional. Hands down...
AA members that actually built there own cables and the problems they ran into.Lots of posts on cables on AA Cable asylum.
But @jea48, your last paragraph just made my brain explode. Does that mean if Jimmy Page plays a cord on his guitar in LA that they can't hear it in NYC. LOL
You referring to this?
I don’t know why cables are directional. I just know some are.
I have a pair of Clear Day Cables solid silver conductor non shielded single ended RCA interconnects that are definitely directional. Hands down...
For my own curiosity wondering how far the "signal" would go: From what I gather this "signal" travels in this medium at a rate of 0.7c, or about 195,000 km per second, so at 60Hz every 0.0167 seconds the energy wave can travel 3250 kilometres before changing directions.
To be clear here guys, I do not have a degree in Physics.
The energy doesn’t change direction. The Energy travels from the source >>> to the load (in one direction) >>> at near the speed of light in a vacuum. I have read in real time around 50% to 70% of the speed of light.
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If the speakers were 3251 kilometers away would there be no signal- would the energy simply stop and turn back the other direction, and one would hear no sound from the speaker?
That’s a tough one.LOL, Not sure exactly what you are asking.
I doubt if @rodman99999could answer it. He has a degree in Physics.
Are you talking about using a pair of wires? Need more info... If wires you are going to need thick conductors and step up the output signal voltage. You are talking over 2000 miles.
I have never heard of energy returning to the source... Current does in a closed circuit. Current travels (slower than cold maple syrup) from the source through the load back to the source. Current is not consumed by a connected load. The energy is what makes the Light bulb light. Not the current.
I would interpret "immediately" to mean small fractions of a second after flipping the switch, after the energy in the lines has completely been absorbed by the load.
I think the answer is instantly. The switch is opened, Games over.
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Just questioning the "one way direction" of energy in an alternating current conductor, but that’s fine.
Not sure what you mean. The ac signal energy does not travel inside the conductor. It flows in the spaces between the conductors. The conductors are a guide for the ac energy to flow from the source to the load in the form of electromagnet waves.
As for the electric charge, current, in the wire it is not moving back and from the source to the load. It is vibrating + - or - + hardly moving at all.
I'm sure @rodman99999could explain it better than me though.
If we accept the idea that fields carry energy in space, it must be true at all frequencies. That is the law. If it is true for light, it must also be true for 60Hz power and at DC. For utility power, the energy travels in the space between conductors, not in the conductors. This is not the picture presented by circuit diagrams, where energy seems to be carried by conductors. In digital circuits, the signals and energy travel in the spaces between traces or between traces and conducting surfaces.
Buildings have halls and walls. People move in the halls, not the walls. Circuits have traces and spaces. Signals and energy move in the spaces, not in the traces.
(To watch the video X out of the blue box by clicking on the white X upper right hand side of blue box. Then press start.)
Audio frequencies would be to the far left of the electromagnetic spectrum. My understanding because of the audio frequencies EM wavelengths wires are required to guide the EM waves from the source to the load.
AC or Alternating Current flows for a short period in one direction, then reverses direction repeatedly. Analog audio signals are AC, and current flows as a result, in speaker and interconnect cables alike. Current is the net movement of electrons in a direction.
So you are saying in a closed circuit the signal flows back and forth from the source to the load. Correct?
If the source is a CDP and the load is an Integrated Amp, using only one channel, the signal leaves the output on the hot wire of an IC, flowing back and forth, flowing to the input of the Amp, through the input circuit of the preamp, and then returns on the return wire back to the CDP output... Correct?
As for the current the "netmovement" of charge, it will measure the same on the hot wire as the return wire in the IC back to the analog output section of the CDP. Correct? This whole event takes place in the wires... Correct?
I'm confused with this theory of the signal flowing back and forth in the wire from the CDP, through the input circuit of the preamp section in the integrated Amp, and then back to the CDP output circuit. Is this the way you say it works? How does the input section in the preamp, for a better word, extract the signal from the IC as it travels through the closed circuit, flowing back and forth, back to the CDP? And what happens to the signal that returns back to the CDP?
Wow! Is that how you are saying it works?
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It's makes a lot more sense the signal travels in the spaces between the two conductors in one direction from the CDP >>> to the input section of the preamp section of the Amp, in the form of EM Waves at near the speed of light in a vacuum. The signal does not return to the CDP.
The wires of the IC are needed to guide the signal energy from the CDP to the preamp. The transmission line is the two wires. You need the wires to create an Electric field and a Magnetic field to create electromagnetic fields outside of the wires. The CDP supplies the voltage for the E field. My understanding, the B (magnetic) field is created by the electric charge flowing in the closed circuit. (Flowing, slower than cold maple syrup) And the electric charge does not flow back and forth in the wire. It's vibrating + - and hardly move at all in the wire.
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You asked in a post about the size, thickness, of the wire. Simple ohms law I = E/R. The bigger the connected load, more current, amperes, the bigger the AWG of the wire needed. More Current, Amps, in the closed circuit, the stronger the magnetic fields. The bigger the load, (lower resistance), the greater the energy transfer from the source to the load.
Energy is what makes the light bulb light, not the current. Current is not consumed by the load. Proof, it returns to the source. Current measures the same on both sides of the load.
Energy is not consumed, it is transferred. It does not return to the source.
Not sure you read this post of mine on page 2. I assume you have heard of the Late Ralph Morrison.
Using your theory how things work, You have to disagree with everything Morrison said that I quoted of his. All of the books he wrote and published, wrong... How many books have you written? And no I haven't written and published any books.
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Are you familiar with the "School of Physics, The University of Sydney"
Understanding Electricity and Circuits:
What the Text Books Don’t Tell You
Ian M. Sefton
I.Sefton@physics.usyd.edu.au
I seem to recall that in another post you said you learnt your electricity from this forum?
No, I actually said:
I first learned how electricity works here on Agon in 2010. Oddly the thread was titled "directional cables?".
A member started posting about how an electrical signal actually travels down a wire. I thought what Planet is this guy from?...
Before 2010 I believed, like you, electrons traveled back an forth from the source to the load in a closed circuit. I believed , like you, AC current traveled back an forth from the source to the load in a closed circuit. I believed, like you, the AC signal traveled back an forth from the source to the load in the conductors.
I learned in 2010 what I was taught in K thru12 was wrong how electricity works.... Four years of electrical apprenticeship training I was taught the same wrong crap.
Basically Sefton and Morrison is saying the same thing.
Quote from Ralph Morrison.
If we accept the idea that fields carry energy in space, it must be true at all frequencies. That is the law. If it is true for light, it must also be true for 60Hz power and at DC. For utility power, the energy travels in the space between conductors, not in the conductors. This is not the picture presented by circuit diagrams, where energy seems to be carried by conductors. In digital circuits, the signals and energy travel in the spaces between traces or between traces and conducting surfaces.
Buildings have halls and walls. People move in the halls, not the walls. Circuits have traces and spaces. Signals and energy move in the spaces, not in the traces.
You don't believe any of that.
Your words:
AC or Alternating Current flows for a short period in one direction, then reverses direction repeatedly. Analog audio signals are AC,
I left you this Link below to read. If you would have taken the time to read over it you again would have found you are wrong. You would find the info is the same as Sefton and Morrison.
Okay, I was kinda done with this thread, but in response to this:
Can’t happen... The energy travels at near the speed of light. It’s at the light bulb the instant the contact closure completes the circuit... It’s that Fast!
Ponder this: You are watching a particular star on a clear night with your telescope, and suddenly you don’t see it anymore, you keep looking, perhaps it was blocked by a plane or some other object, or bent by some other huge object in a distant galaxy, but then after some length of time you are convinced that it must no longer be there, and how cool is that! You just witnessed a star burning out! You witnessed a star that had been burning for perhaps billions of years suddenly die! But in fact it "burned out" thousands of years before you were born- it just took that long for that last bit of light to reach your eyes.
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Distance from earth? Measured in light years. How many light years?
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Quote:
Light is the fastest-moving stuff in our universe. It travels at 186,000 miles per second (300,000 km/sec). So, a light-year is 5.88 trillion miles (9.46 trillion km)."
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Quote:
"The nearest stars to Earth are three stars that lie about 4.37 light-years away in the Alpha Centauri triple-star system. The closest of these stars, Proxima Centauri, is just about 4.24 light-years away."
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Average distance in your home for a light switch to a light fixture.
I believe that is more in lines with roughing in the electrical to the rooms, but more in line with this thread, I am curious if were able to see the power cords connecting those machines; any directionality on them?
Nope...
I wouldn’t even bring up wire directionality to a fellow electrician. Or how electrical energy, power, actually travels from an AC source to a connected load. They would look at me like I was nuts... To the average electrician AC current flows back and forth in a closed electrical circuit. E = I x R... P = E x I. They measure current with a Clamp Amp meter. Current does the work... Current makes the filament in the light bulb light.
I am not saying all Journey wireman electricians today are of the same mind set.
Especially Master Electricians.
I don’t know if you are aware, but Shunyata claims to have some of its power cables in some hospitals as the filters and shielding reduce noise on the heart monitors and enable the doctors to better read the data from them. Not sure if any have made their way to MRI’s etc.
I remember reading that too. To be honest with you I never looked at any of the power cords used in a hospital.
(FWIW, I never considered the wire in a 120Vac power cord was directional. You can’t really check for yourself. It comes with a male and female connector. Now an interconnect, what signal voltage are we dealing with? Maybe around 2V, usually less sometimes?)
I can tell you any power cord used in a patient care area are UL Listed hospital grade and have Hospital Grade connectors. Who was in charge to made sure they were? It was either Bio Med or Bio Tech. Every receptacle outlet in patient care rooms, ER, OR, ICU CCU, Cath Labs, others I can’t think of, were inspected by either Bio med or Bio Tech, (can’t remember which one), for any exterior damage and checked the equipment ground contact of the outlet for a minimum of 4 ounces of contact pull out holding contact pressure. They had a device they plugged into the outlet that had a mechanical pointer that indicated the pulling out resistance in ounces. I can’t remember how often they tested the outlets. But I bet they checked power cords as well when checking the wall outlets, to make sure they were UL Listed Hospital Grade, and checked for any signs of damage.
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One thing I do remember. The shop, the electrical Contractor I worked for, shop Branch Manager, without consulting me first, gave the hospital a price to change out all the 20A duplex wall outlets in patient rooms on two floors of a wing in the hospital. It was a competitive bid job, Therein bidding against another Electrical Contractor. Well he was the low bidder. He got the job. Problem? For the hospital grade duplex wall outlets, an electrical wholesale house salesman gave him great price on a bulk order of Pass & Seymour 20A 8300 hospital grade duplex receptacle outlets. At the time I was ordering, using, a good quality Leviton 8300 hospitable grade duplex receptacle outlets. They held up good compared, against, the high dollar 20A Hubbell 8300 outlets.
You just just don’t change the manufacturer of a hospital grade electrical outlet used in a hospital. Not that hospital anyway. I got the in house electrical department shop foreman to consider the Leviton 8300 outlet. I gave him a couple and told him to physically abuse the hell out of them. Let me know what he thought of them. He got back with me and gave me approval to use them instead of the high dollar Hubbell 8300 outlets.
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Cut to the case, my boss said that’s what he bid that’s what will be installed. Fine!
So I had my electricians install the P&S outlets. LOL, you just don’t walk into a patient room, that has a patient in it, and change out wall outlets. You talk to the floor nurse manager, Very nicely, and say "I have been hired to change out all the wall outlets in patient rooms on the floor." "Would you please call me on my cell phone and let me know when a room, or maybe rooms, are empty and available."
She might say something like, "Yeah, I heard they had to be replaced."
Next thing out her mouth, "How long will you tie up my patient bed,.. the room?" Get an idea what you are dealing with? A lot of wasted non productive time. Time Is Money!
About a year later I got a call from Bio-med or Bio tech asking me if I installed new outlets on two floors in the so, so, wing. LOL, they knew I did... Next words out of the guys mouth we started testing the outlets on one of the floors and outlets are failing the test.
Did you do your practical hospital wiring based on the "false" teachings from your apprenticeship, or based on what you learned here? Be honest.
I did electrical wiring after 2010 the same way as I did before 2010. Why would you think I would do it any different?
Knowing how energy actually flows from the source >>> to the Load doesn’t change anything as for installing electrical wiring.
To keep it as simple as I can for you... Example: A customer has a new piece of equipment he wants connected to electrical power. He may have a spec sheet that specifies what the manufacturer requires for the minimum electrical wiring requirements. Usually it just says it must be wired to meet NEC code. (Not Always)
If nothing is given the name/data plate on the equipment is used. The data plate will show the Phase, voltage, and the FLA (Full Load Amps).
Per NEC, (National Electrical Code), the branch circuit wiring is sized using the FLA times 125%. If the FLA is 27A, 1.25 X 27A = 33.75A. Table 310-16, (and notes), wire size? #8awg copper. That’s It.... Phase, Voltage, and Full load current. (Note: Motor loads use different wire sizing calculations)
Nothing said about current "flowing" back an forth in a circuit. Nothing said about energy flowing in one direction either... Phase, Voltage, and Full load current... (Note, there are, will be, maybe, other things the electrician must take into account, for the wiring method he uses. I kept it simple, for you.
....and checked the equipment ground contact of the outlet for a minimum of 4 ounces of contact pull out holding contact pressure. They had a device they plugged into the outlet that had a mechanical pointer that indicated the pulling out resistance in ounces. I can’t remember how often they tested the outlets. ... Next words out of the guys mouth we started testing the outlets on one of the floors and outlets are failing the test.
@jea48It seems really odd to me that nobody has invented a simple locking mechanism for hospital outlets, or simply use some sort of L14 30R plug like they have on generators to ensure it remains where it should. It is not about contact pressure for "better signal", it is about the likelihood of a plug to become dislodged. How much money would hospitals save by doing this, instead of the frequent inspections which must add up to some serious coin.
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It is not about contact pressure for "better signal", it is about the likelihood of a plug to become dislodged.
IT is absolutely about contact pressure. Especially the contact pressure of the female safety equipment ground contact to the plug equipment ground pin. A good low impedance connection is a must...
The worst physical abuser of a hospital grade receptacle, that a patient’s bed is plugged into, is the house keeper that scrubs the floor in the room. ??? I actually seen it first hand. The house keeper unlocks the brakes on the bed and gives it hard shove to one side so the floor under the bed can be cleaned. The cord on the bed is only so long. The extreme side pressure on the plug rips it right out of the receptacle. That abuse of the receptacle contacts, especially the equipment ground contact can go well beyond the designed contact holding memory retention.
Hubbell and Leviton hospital grade receptacles can take repeated physical abuse for years. The Pass & Seymour 20A, 8300 hospital grade duplex receptacle outlets made it about one year. There is a very chance they didn’t last that long...
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