Direct Drive


I am firmly in the digital camp, but I’ve dabbled in vinyl.  Back in the day I was fascinated by Technics Direct Drive tt, but couldn’t afford them.  I was stuck with my entry level Gerrard.  I have been sans turntable for about 5 years now but the new gear bug is biting.  I am interested in the Technics 1500 which comes with an Ortofon Red and included pre amp.  I have owned Rega P5 which I hated for its speed instability and a Clearaudio Concept which was boring as hell.

  Direct Drive was an anathema to audiophiles in the nineties but every time I heard  one it knocked my socks off.  What do the analogers here think of Direct Drive?  I listen to Classical Music exclusively 

mahler123

Showing 4 responses by richardkrebs

As I said. "The new Technics" this includes the SL-1200GR. slotless, coreless, 3 phase. Some versions available right here in NZ for $3000. 

The reference class Technics SL-1000R is available here in NZ for $31,999 ( Under US$20,000 ) 

The Pioneer P3 and the Victor TT-101 with slotless and coreless motors, also appear to be 3 phase, but I cannot be sure. Same would apply to the big Sony's 

If you widen the category to just 3 phase...pretty much every Technics DD ever made.

@clearthinker 

I think that we need to step back and look at drive alternatives a little more accurately. A well tuned PID controller will not constantly speed up and slow down, provided the motor controller architecture is well designed.. The phenomenon you mention does exist in poorly implemented systems and is called hunting. Cogging is a characteristic of some motors due to their physical build. (Slotless, coreless motors, properly made are zero cogging and have vanishingly low torque ripple.) 

Synchronous motors, widely touted in these parts for belt drive and rim drive, under a varying load, say playing a record, do hunt about their average if you measure them with sufficient granularity. Synchronous motors therefore exhibit the very characteristic you rail against in a DD system.

The answer to smooth speed is only partly helped by high inertia. What matters more is the frequency response of the drive. A function of the platters inertia and the motor's torque. Then there are a multitude of other factors to take into account when designing a drive system, no matter what type of architecture you choose.  Please view the youtube link here. Note how quickly the arm, which obviously has mass, is pulled across the tank and in so doing how it lifts the weight in the glass bottle. At times the arm is held for some time against the edge of the tank. Inertia won't save you under these conditions. The platter will slow down and a belt, thread, tape or rim drive, would slingshot the paltter up to momentary over speed once the high stylus drag reduces. A properly implemented DD will also do this, but at a much lower magnitude.

I realize that I'm opening Pandora's box here and I'm not looking for a debate on the subject. We all have our favorites  But please look at the video and then consider what would be the best drive architecture to counter this dynamic load. It is an insanely difficult task to control a platters speed under dynamic conditions. All drives have their pros and cons. I happen to believe that modern DD is superior at this. of course others disagree and that's just fine with me.

Скатывающая сила как измерить - YouTube

I just knew I should not have hit that bee hive with a stick😊

Correct, it is not cogging, as Lew and I have already explained.
“ the problem is pulsing”  let’s get this out of the way..,,
An 8 pole motor would be 2 phase. This is not a linear torque design, better DD TTs use a 3 phase motor, designed for sinusoidal back emf. These synchronous motors are inherently linear torque. They do not pulse 
Any deviation from linear torque due to manufacturing tolerances is called torque ripple. In good three phase motors, this is vanishingly low, but not zero. Nothing is perfect. Further, today’s sophisticated controllers can now “look” at this ripple and mitigate it in real time. Thus calibrate the controller and motor pair. Further this ripple for say a quality 18 pole motor running at 33.33 is sub sonic, well below 20 Hz

Consider what happens when you replace a compliant belt with a material that does not stretch. Since the motor is running much faster, you are now injecting the motors torque ripple into the platter. It’s frequency right in the audio band. 

Monaco improving their error correction is audible not because it is improving the motors no load speed accuracy but because it is improving how the drive reacts to platter speed changes due to the dynamically induced load caused by stylus drag. 
The fact that this can clearly be heard should concern some here who champion alternate drive architectures. Such drive systems are “blind” to these real time platter speed changes. 

As I said earlier, making a drive speed stable under dynamic load conditions is insanely difficult.

Making a drive speed stable under constant load is relatively easy.

 

cheers 

A heavy platter like that used on the Final Audio, will lower the rates of deceleration, acceleration. High inertia reduces the magnitude of speed changes, it does not eliminate them. 

The connotations of the words "immediately and "suddenly" aren't appropriate and I did not use them.

DD TTs using three phase motors. The new Technics, the SAT, VPI. I'm not sure about the NVS and the Monarch, but would be surprised if they weren't three phase, given their quality. Then of course there is the motor I build and install into my K3 design