Dover,
As 'stylus drag' must vary with the modulation of the grooves responding to the complexity and dynamics of the musical performance.......it would not, I think, be a constant?
If you merely adjust your speed-controller to hold the Timeline constant with the cartridge tracking........it would be interesting to see where the Timeline 'mark' would be at the end of a whole side of a powerful symphony such as The Royal Ballet, The Three Cornered Hat, Pines of Rome or Witches Brew? |
Wouldn't it be interesting if the only tables to pass the 'Timeline' test were all 30 years old? |
Mosin, A lot of new ones pass, but the surprise is which ones. This sounds like you could already produce a list for us? :-) |
Richard mentions the issue of 'Stylus Drag' which many think is an exaggerated myth? On Timeline's own YouTube video.......using a Transrotor belt-drive turntable with a heavy platter (and high inertia).......notice at the end, how after the speed has been corrected according to the Timeline......when the tonearm drops on the record, the speed immediately slows HEREWith the Victor TT-101 DD turntable however.......notice the complete lack of 'stylus drag' even with two or three tonearms in operation HEREPlease forgive the amateurish video technique as I held my iPhone whilst talking and 'acting' :-( |
Thank you Peter,
When I saw that Timeline video using the Transrotor turntable.......it was also the first time that I was able to appreciate the effects of stylus drag.
It's hard to imagine anyone claiming that 'speed control' was inconsequential after viewing it?
Regards |
Dev,
The Raven AC does not perform as well as the TT-101 in regards to 'stylus drag' yet seems to be better than the Transrotor appears from the Timeline video?
For what it's worth though......the sound of the Raven AC can be just as musically satisfying as the Victor. |
Dover,
The only visual test for 'stylus drag' using the Timeline.....is to have the turntable operating with the steady stationary flash on the wall WITHOUT the arm lowered...and then to lower the arm and see if the flashing light moves at all.
Raising and lowering the arm several times whilst observing the action of the flashing light will confirm success or failure? |
Mosin, Location of mass matters, and it matters a lot. Interesting.......I must admit I had never really considered this? It makes sense? |
Pryso,
Originally Ron Sutherland made the Timeline with a 'chip' programmed to flash once per revolution.
Early on.......to make for easier adjustment of the 'flash' on an adjacent wall....he changed the chip to flash 5 or 8 times per revolution.
He offerred to change my 'chip' free of charge if I had the old one but fortunately....I had the new :-)
Regards |
Dover,
Can you comment on how the Transrotor system might differ to those of Linn, Rega, VPI et al? |
I noted the recommendation from Tonywinsc re the Dr Feikert Analogue iPhone/iPad free App....so promptly downloaded it onto my iPad and ordered the 10" Test disc from his Website. HEREis the Frequency Plot from the Victor TT-101 Direct Drive deck and HEREare the Specs. Note the almost perfect Mean Frequency Response against the recorded 3150Hz and the impressive .01% speed deviation. Note also the impressive mirror-imaged sine wave plot positive and negative? HEREis the corresponding Frequency Plot for the Raven AC-2. note the lack of symmetry above and below the mean line? HEREis the corresponding Data for the Raven showing a less precise match to the 3150Hz Test Tone. This is the closest that the Raven Motor Controller allows me to get. Still not too bad? The thing these Plots do not show however.....is that every time I do a new plot for the Raven AC.......it gives slightly different results whereas every Plot for the TT-101 is identical. Whereas this information may have some value to the academic or scientist......I find the Timeline to be a better indicator of both short-term speed drift as well as long-term speed maintenance. The only disparaging remarks about the Timeline I find....comes from those who don't own one....or those whose turntable performs poorly against one? :-) |
Hi Tony,
Yes....the Raven is belt-drive.
I'd appreciate it if you could explain to me what you can see in the different plots.....as I must admit....I'm not sure what to be looking for? :-) |
Hi Tdaudio,
I tested the Raven with one, two and three motors using the Timeline......and two motors gave the most stable and consistent speed using this method? |
Hi Chris,
I will be testing azimuth and arm resonances via this App when I get some time?
Seems like a pretty good investment for under $20 incl delivery from Dr Feikert?
Gotta love the audio community? :-)
Regards |
Dover, Final Audio High inertia TT has a resistance to stylus drag variation 4 times higher than the SP10mk3 & Kenwood L07D Yet you already admitted that you have to reset the speed on your Final Audio TT to accommodate for stylus drag? So my test procedure was :
1. Set the speed with the KAB with no record playing.
2. Use the Timeline to validate the speed at both inner at outer grooves.
3. Reset the speed again with the KAB with the record playing tracking at 2g
4. Use the Timeline to validate the speed at both inner at outer grooves.
Now I'm reasonably happy about the need for belt-drive decks without monitored speed correction.....to be set up for 'stylus down' accuracy. But I have yet to see (via video)......a belt-drive (even with massive inertia) pass the Timeline test with and without stylus in the groove? I think you agree with that:- I think your test methodology would prove that only turntables with error speed correction built in will pass. We know that stylus drag exists and should always set speed with the stylus playing. So I'm not quite sure where you're going with this 'High Inertia' argument unless you can demonstrate differences in the effect of 'stylus drag'? Regards |
One thing all this testing has shown IMHO......is that the performance of belt-drive turntables in general.....and the Raven AC in particular.....can be surprisingly good?
Just study all the test data in comparison to the TT-101 (which is demonstratively as good as it gets from an 'objective' point of view)....and those who bemoan the inability of their Ravens to 'hold' correct speed, should re-assess their set-ups?
I suspect that the big Micros and Dover's Final belt drives can be even better than the Raven in this aspect....which would push them even closer to the speed-accuracy performance the best DD turntables? |
Ketchup. I like your idea of using two tomearms. I think that the test disc is 10 inch diameter, havent seen one. So could it be placed on top of a LP? Use one arm to measure frequency and use the second arm to play music on the outer track of the LP. That would be intersting.
TT-101TT-101TT-101TT-101RAVENRAVENRAVENRAVEN |
Hi Tony,
My 'dedication' is made somewhat easier by the free Feikert App and Test disc you recommended.
The 'Test Procedure' is quite easy and quick to perform.
A few questions you might help me with:-
1. The Mean Frequency on the TT-101 seems to be MORE accurate with the drop of the 2nd tonearm than without it?
2. Do you have any comments on the 'shape' of the 'raw' frequency sine-waves between the two tables?
Regards |
Dear Tony,
Thanks for all your feedback and interest.
Surprisingly.......Ketchup and Richardkrebs who requested the testing I provided due to their keen interest.......have gone silent? |
Richard/Lew, I have added no mass to either the Victor or the Raven turntables. In fact....I am playing the TT-101 WITHOUT the standard rubber mat. A 1mm thick sheet of pigskin being the only separation between vinyl and aluminium platter. With the Raven...I am playing the records sitting directly on the copper platter top-plate. Ketchup, it might be possible to improve its speed stability by using a higher viscosity oil. Have you seen my video of the TT-101 with the three tonearms going up and down monitored with the Timeline? I have seen no visual evidence of any other turntable equalling this degree of accuracy and speed stability? Did you note the 3150 Hz frequency on the Feickert sine-wave test with 2 tonearms on the platter? How much improvement do you visualise? |
Richard,
I did try a Micro Seiki Cu180 copper platter mat as a replacement to the original rubber mat on the Victor TT-101 DD deck.....and heard a definite improvement.
The trouble was not audibly discernible with the servo correction mechanism....as you and Chris allude to.....but the 'brake' mechanism of the TT-101 was not able to handle the added mass of the platter when the 'stop' button was pressed.
This certainly worried me as, like Chris......I did not wish to stuff my perfectly working TT-101 for a slight improvement in performance?
After much experimentation......I found that the Victor pigskin mat laid directly on the aluminium platter......sounded as close as damn-it to the 1.8Kg copper mat without affecting the 'brake' mechanism one iota?
Go figure......? |
Dover, Techdas looks interesting........if not 'Classic' material?..although I was surprised to see no comments on its 'sound' from anyone at CES? Can't wait for Fremer's review coming shortly and I can see Thuchan having one if it's positive? I simply have no real-estate for another turntable? Thuchan has been at me for ever to buy a big Micro like the SX-8000.....and I've never heard a good idler...but again....Thuchan does love his EMT? If I could find a turntable that looks as fine as THIS...and sounds as well as THIS and performs as well as THIS......I might buy one? Regards |
Ha ha,
Never seen or heard of that idler before?
In fact......didn't know that Fidelity Research made ANY turntables? |
Lespier, Your results for the tt101 are interesting but more telling (as you have multiple arms) would be to place the smaller feickert test disc on top of a (heavily modulated?) 12" lp and play the lp with one arm and the test disc with another. This will give us a picture of what's going on in real time under dynamic conditions. That's exactly what I have done on my latest Posting which shows 4 photos for each turntable. The last two photos of each....show the effect of another arm dropped midway onto 'heavily modulated' disc whilst the test tone is being played by another arm Please read the descriptions beneath each photo? Agree with Tony......very impressive results from your turntable. Congratulations. Can you describe the motor and modifications you have made? |
I am beginning to suspect the accuracy of the Feickert Platter Speed App and/or Adjust 7" Test Record?
As I mentioned previously......every time one does a test on the same turntable with the same arm and cartridge....slightly different results appear in the Data.
Additionally....as Tony has pointed out.....turning the disc 1/4 turn at a time will give differing results due to record eccentricity.
But the real problem as I see it....is that one can achieve far better results from a 10 sec-20 sec Test than with a 4 minute or 6 minute test?
Hmmm....... |
As I do the tests with the 1350Hz Test Tone.....I can graphically see the frequency on the iPad App moving backwards and forwards equally about the 'mean' frequency.......so that the average mean frequency comes in very nicely on the Data......but the wow and flutter is high.
This is definitely caused by the off-centre hole on the 7"" test record.
I suspect Lespier does not use the Feikert 7" Test disc.....or if he does.......his is a 'good' one?
As you say Tony.......I think our turntables are testing the 'test' equipment?
Back to the Timeline for me :-) |
Richard, Do you have any theories other than eccentricity as to why the results with the Feickert are inconsistent? That's my main one....although I suspect that fluctuation of mains power could affect the sensitivity of the sine-wave generation frequency? It appears that results are better late at night.....and without air conditioning on?.....at least chez moi :-) Regards |
Dover, Then centre the record to minimise runout. Can you please explain what you mean by this? Thanks. |
Have you been watching too much cricket ? With the current bunch of Aussie batsmen? Are you serious? But Andy Murray to beat Jokovic in the Australian Open tonight? |
Is that your Porsche ? Very very nice. Thanks........50 years old in June this year. Gets me in a lot of trouble when I say it looks better than most 50 year old women? Guess I should leave out the noun...."women"? |
Didn't Goldmund use the JVC/Victor motors? |
