Direct drive vs belt vs rim vs idler arm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB2TaN2FPRU

Lawrence here is a direct link to your site.

Cheers

Mosin/Richardkrebs – thank you for your excellent thoughts on this thread.

Mosin – as just an amateur hobbyist myself, most of what you have said is in sync with what I have heard with my TT’s the last few years. I agree that string drive could be a little fiddly, when trying to convert a belt design TT to thread/string. But I have found that on a string designed TT – once the string technique is learned (there was a learning curve with mine), it was pretty much plug and play after that for me.

RichardKrebs

It was actually possible to recognize the music being played at the time on the scope. The speed sensor was measuring these tiny errors and correcting. This could be observed by watching the motor draw current in sync with the music. An amazing observation.

I find this simply incredible.
Are you able to tell us what turntables / tonearms /cartridges you used during this analysis/testing?

Hi Richardkrebs/Peterayer, for the record that is Lawrence's video (Lharasim). Not mine. All I did was put it into a direct link on the thread for viewing.

Hi Mosin – regarding your Merry Go Round.

As a manufacturer, I find you have left out a very important detail for us to consider.

Please tell us what type of BEARING your merry go round uses. Is it something nice and smooth and slippery or does it float ?

You see IMO - this is a total resonance vibration hobby. An imperfect sharp rock of various designs and angles that goes into an imperfect groove of an imperfect piece of plastic..... to make vibrations ........

In the last three years I have found as an amateur that the Achilles Heel for turntables I have owned - seems to be the BEARING.

It also seems to be the elephant in the room. Pretty boring. You can’t even see the damn thing. I think it’s still there. But the platter is too heavy for me to think about lifting it out right now. Will look later later.... Some squirt some oil in, others squirt in grease. Still others have found some secret product? Maybe it came from the moon?

IMO - it contains the family jewels and is the DNA as far as how any of the turntables I have owned actually sounded. It is the ROOT.

Put a TT motor right up to the Bearing or close to it – the result is usually a turntable designed like a fortress (spaceship?) to protect against all those vibration / resonance nasties. Not that there is anything wrong with this - many ways to skins a cat here.

How many people on this thread other than actual designers and manufacturers, know what type of bearing is contained in their turntable? How many know what the replacement cost is, and its percentage relation to the cost of your whole TT?

Well here is maybe a little silver bullet for you – in my humble opinion.

Find this out and you may find out if your table was built for:

1)Performance
2)Profit
3)To win the beauty contest.
4)All of the above.

IMO - 4 is the correct answer - Hey we do have to listen and look at it every day, and you want your manufacturer to stay in business right - for support ?

For those looking to buy a turntable – challenge your seller to give this information to you.

Look.. I am done – I think – my vinyl journey. After what I have learned however as an Amateur, I would never ever again buy an expensive turntable without this information.

So

What if you find out that the $5000 table you are eyeing has a bearing that costs 68 dollars to replace? Would you still buy it ? This is just thought...

So the BEARING imo is one, but not the only BIG Rock in this hobby.

No more coffee for me this morning...sorry if any of this comes off as cynical....

Tonywinsc - my post was meant to imply the Bearing Design. Sorry for the confusion. The bearing being the part that is typically replaced.

TonyWinsc - My tt has a hardened steel ball turning on a flat sapphire disc. It is not only very quiet, but would likely last for a billion cycles. At 33 1/3 rpm that is 57 years continuous running. My great great grandkids will be playing records on it.

Oh I agree that all these tables will be around for our great great grandkids to use - if they want them.

When you say very quiet - what is this based on? What tables have you compared next to it in the same room/gear to make this statement?

By chance did these tables also have the same tonearm/cartridge on them as well going through the same gear?

How many years does a billion cycles translate to ? Is longevity of an affordable bearing your prime consideration?

These are not direct questions to you - just some considerations. I think when people come on forums and say something like "very quiet" it needs a reference, a standard that the personal opinion is based on.

I will just say this.

Sometimes, something needs to removed to be able to hear the difference it makes.

Cheers

Tonywinsc - 57 years continuous running bearing life - thanks.

01-04-13: Richardkrebs
Dover
Yes we are measuring an error and correcting it before it gets worse.
This is the old argument about feedback correcting an error that has already passed. The nature of this feedback and the torque/ platter moment are critical here. The motor must totally dominate the platters rotation.

Mosin
Okay, let's go further. Do you think a special merry-go-round could be built for the little girl, so she could spin as many kids around as you can?
This goes to torque, and how one might approach building a turntable with a low torque motor, yet having mass applied so that performance would equal a turntable with a high torque motor.
I suppose the point here is that there are quite a few ways to skin the proverbial cat.

Hi Richardkrebs/Mosin

Interesting thoughts. Based on the tables I own.

Richardkrebs – I agree with your thoughts as they would apply for DD and Idler but not for string drive. I would also revise the wording to read motor/controller instead of just motor - to be explicit.

Mosin – I support and agree totally with the concept you have described. In fact based on my direct experience I believe the Verdier Platine original design when properly set up, satisfies your conditions. Are you familiar with it?

Mosin
I am puzzled that his bearing doesn't seem to be in keeping with his papers, but I suppose that is a topic for another thread

Hi Mosin thank you for your response. I am just an end user. I do not use a “bearing”. Nor did my vintage Granito model come with one. Sometimes when audiophiles really demand something, manufacturers sometimes have no choice but to start supplying it? You would know much more about this than me. It must be really tough sometimes? I could never be a manufacturer. You have my utmost respect Mosin in this regard ... as well as all other high end manufacturers out there trying to compete in this crazy market.

The manual is very clear on the setup bearing. It is just that - a setup tool only. It should be discarded once set up complete – Page 9. Using it imo is sacrilege. Defeating the purpose of the design.

Re: the Platine. Unfortunately there are non-authentic tables out there worldwide from 20 different counterfeiting makers. These tables are out there with people using them. If anyone is unaware of this, see the
Platine
Information on the JC Verdier website for more info.

To current/potential Platine Owners.

As an owner of this table, the only advice I can give when buying a Verdier Platine - be careful to ensure it is a real Platine, especially if buying privately. If you are looking to buy one or already have one and have doubts, check with an authorized dealer or Mr Verdier himself to ensure it is authentic.

Cheers

Hi Tonywinsc/Henry et al.

Thanks for publishing that excellent information Henry !

From Dr. Feickerts website.
------------------------------------------------------------

The optimal Azimuth can be found reliably using a systematic analysis of the values of level and phase angle of the crosstalk signal against different azimuth settings.
But this is not the complete functionality you get. You can also measure dynamically using Pink Noise to see how your cartridge reacts under complex signals. Additionally you can measure the frequency response of your cartridge/phono-stage with Pink Noise (dynamic) or with a sine-wave sweep (static). In both cases also in left or right channel only mode.

Setting up turntable speed now is an easy task as you don’t need to use inaccurate strobe discs. Simply use Adjust+ and enjoy additional benefit from the built-in wow&flutter analyzer – now even evaluating according to DIN IEC 386 (formerly DIN 45507)! Now you can test how good your turntable spins your discs….

------------------------------------------------------------

To All.

Would I be correct in assuming that if we wanted a real apples to apples comparison of the data, turntable to turntable – then Halcro (Henry) needs to use the same tonearm/cartridge on each table ?

Did u use different tonearms and cartridges on the two turntables Henry ?

From Dr Feicket’s website again. Btw - I am not affiliated with Dr. Feickert.

Another feature is the fres task. You can measure the resonance frequency of your cartridge/tonearm combination, something very, very rarely found nowadays. Adjust+ helps you to see if your chosen combination works in the recommended range of 8-12 Hertz. Well, and if you are not sure if you have additional resonances in your tonearm resulting from tracking you can measure in the range from 30 to 500 Hertz and see…..

Back in the 70- 80’s when vinyl was at its peak, Bruce Thigpen did a number of wow and flutter tests, without an Android or I phone :^) ........ on various tonearms using the same table.

But this a turntable thread...

Cheers

wow and flutter defined

01-24-13: Richardkrebs
Halcro
The reason for my question was that it is popular to add significant inertia via metal aftermarket mats. The thought is that this can screw with the servo, which if excessive, it should.

Krebs Upgrade

Hi RichardKrebs
As part of coming up with the Krebs upgrade were you able to determine what the weight threshold is for an SP10MKII platter before it starts to ^%*% with the servo. Very much interested in your opinion as I have a couple mats. Thanks.

Thanks for the response Richard. Was curious.
My copper mat does not cause a problem to the servo from what I can tell but longer term I haven’t a clue. My “gut” says don’t use it based on the difference in weight with the original mat. A clean SP10MKII is worth $$$$ in working condition. One with a %#@* up servo is worth a quarter of the amount to me personally.
Cheers Chris

Has anyone on this thread used an SP10MKII with a copper mat for 5 years or longer - any issues ?

Mosin
Now, if I can only convince Syntax. Then, the fight will be won! That will certainly take some convincing, won't it? At least he and I agree about string drive! ;)

Hi Mosin - seems like an easy fix.

Send him one of your tables to hear, and see if he returns it.

No?

01-28-13: Richardkrebs
Dover The jitter artefact, as Mosin quite correctly points out, is not limited to the Technics line, he hears it in DDs in general.
Actually my testing and listening has shown it to be present in any motor that uses feedback be it local feedback ( self correction) as in free running motors like those in most BDs / idler drives or global feedback as in DDs. That is it occurs in all motors. Since all TTs have motors ......

Hi Richard/Mosin

Looking to learn and substantiate what I hear.

Can you please describe the feedback you are “hearing”

Differences in sound between local and global feedback ?

Thanks

Hi Richard/Mosin

Thanks for your posts and more information on local and global feedback which is what I was really looking for. Sorry for not being a little clearer. I would like to delve further into the technical nature of local and global feedback, but maybe on another thread?
Thanks again for the info.

Mosin,
You may want to carefully make some comparisons for yourself, however. I believe you will hear it, especially if you have the opportunity to make some A-B comparisons.

Mosin, I did these comparisons already a while back, and they are the reason I ended up where I am today. I documented my results and opinions as an end user. If interested seek out Goldilocks on my system page. Warning – Sense of humor a prerequisite before venturing to her. :^)
Cheers Chris

Hi Richard

02-02-13: Richardkrebs
Ct0517
Re the Bear that tries too hard.
He doesn't have to been so stressed.
I can help him relax.

Big smile when I read that. Thanks.
In the “bear room” when they are happy; I am happy.
They are picky about the type of honey they like. :^)

SP10MKII - Not being an electronics engineer I always attributed the phenomena to cogging, or the servo having to keep speed (always a little high or low) in order to stay at speed ? Your posts have shed new light on this. Dovers last posts :^) again raise a number of points. What is it about audiophiles from New Zealand? A competitive bunch.

To improve the SP10MKII based solely on what I hear I always thought;
A little less speed correction if possible - but enough to just keep it stable?

As an owner of one I will be interested to hear/read about any direct comparisons between SP10MKII’s and MKIII’s, which have your mod. Does the gap get closed? The SP10 is still my PET project, self pride is involved and I continue to learn from her.
Cheers Chris

Wonderful read Mosin.
Thx for sharing.

Hi Richard, Albert Porter, Bill Thalmann
I came across your new website today.
As a hobbyist with no affiliation to any of you - congrats on the new site and good luck.

Richard
May I ask if this pic from the site is your personal
TT / Tonearm setup or another customer's setup ?
Cheers Chris

Hi Richard
Holy Moly.
This being a TT thread will post a link in the appropriate thread :^)