Direct drive/rim drive/idler drive vs. belt drive?

Mark Kelly (Quiddity).

How did you come to choose your moniker? I looked it up:

1. The essence, nature, or distinctive peculiarity, of a
thing; that which answers the question, Quid est? or, What
is it? " The degree of nullity and quiddity." --Bacon.
[1913 Webster]

Anything to do with that?

All this technical discussion reminds me of the numbers war in electronics in the 1980s. If we are to believe any of those specifications the Yamaha receiver is a much better performer than a Lamm.

I began with rim drive over 40 years ago and was talked into a belt drive, assured of it's superiority by the Thorens rep himself.

I owned tens of dozens of belt drives and each sounded different but not until I returned to rim drive / direct drive did I get the immediacy and impact that had been missing all these years.

I clump rim drive and (good) direct drive into the same category as both provide similar sound.

Quiddity, I don't know where you heard a Garrard or other rim drive that had such poor speed results, but in a side by side test against three of the finest belt drive tables on earth the Garrard was top or very near.

Mosin

That said, he owns idlers including the Garrard 301, Commonwealth and others, and he can fix the speed on pretty much anything. Basically, he may be saying that the Garrard needs a good speed control. ;)

The Garrard I heard was running on European settings with the Loricraft motor controller. Sounded very good, with strong drive and energy to plow through difficult passages.

Quiddity

I have designed a belt drive which has a very, very low level of creep. It is in the process of being built and will be on show at RMAF in the Galibier room if we get it finished in time. I do not expect it to sound like an idler table, I expect it to sound like a belt drive with the belt creep problems removed.

I can't speak about technology that has not yet been created, I can't even speak about every turntable made as I have not heard them all. I have heard tens of dozens of belt drives and all the things discussed here at Audiogon matter (suspension, belt, arm, cartridge, isolation, etc). but there remains one overall character and that is lack of drive. You have to live with each for awhile to understand. I'm not saying all rim drives are perfect nor all belt drives faulty, I'm saying they tend to exhibit qualities or personality, much like we attribute to tubes versus transistors.

Quiddity

The direct effect which you postulate is reduced by the second order low pass filter formed by the belt / platter combination. The maximal velocity variation for a given length change is the product of the radial displacement produced by the length change and the corner frequency of the filter system expressed in radians per second. The numbers come out in the parts per million range.

You want to hear a really strange story? I have two identical Technics SP10 MK3 turntables. One was sent to a tech who is considered to be one of the best in the USA. He replaced all the caps, diodes and rectifiers and upon return (even though it tested the same) it KILLED the table with no upgrades.

There has to be a lot of complicated things going on with "drive" and "speed" of these various tables because the start, stop, accuracy and drive can be drastically improved by things like this upgrade and I don't know if those are even in the parts per million.

Excellent story, mine is much simpler.

My Mother and Father picked out Albert Porter for me when I was born and it seemed like a good name for Audiogon as well :^).

Ralphmasphere

08-03-09: Atmasphere
Axel, I regard differences in dynamics as a coloration, just like tonality and soundstage. All are **definitely** aspects of platter pad vinyl resonance control (or lack thereof).

Do you not separate the drive system of a table from the damping or lack of damping of the platter? I definitely hear differences in drive systems.

Several reputable companies have done experiments where identical systems and platters (a VPI) were driven with belt drive and then rim drive. I also read about auditions with a direct drive Teres versus belt drive Teres. Both have been discussed here at Audiogon.

I remember the designers as well as listeners saying there were repeatable and conclusive results based only on drive system, even though table, platter and mat remained the same.

Maybe some Teres or VPI guys who participated in this will chime in.