Difference in B&W sound

Hi Danmar123

Interesting thread subject and based on two speakers that represent a clear change in direction and sound for the company.
I have always owned a set of B&W's since the 70's and various 800 series from the 80's onward.
Some comments you can consider. A bit of fun first, facts, some history and opinion.

The fun part first.

Over there are two birds that look like two ducks.
Upon moving closer differences are revealed.
They do share genetics, as when you look under the feathers, they both show the same tag.
But when they quack they sound different. So what gives?
You are not imagining things.

Some facts direct from from B&W based on your speakers.

804n
45Hz – 20kHz ± 2dB on reference
8 ohms - 3 ohm minimum.

803 Matrix s2
26 hz - 20khz
sixth order butterworth with 25 hz cutoff with bass alignment filter.
8 ohms 3.7 ohms minimum.

The above tells me that your 803 are closer to full range. They will have a fuller sweeter sound and will go easier on your amplifier.
If, I had no idea who and what B&W was I would think that the 803 are a higher pecking order based on specs over the 804. Indeed this is the case.
So you are not comparing apples to apples here, no matter what equipment ends up in front of these speakers.
In fact two different design speakers under the same brand - more on this in a bit.

I owned the 803 s2 for a time back around '94 ? They were very nice, elegant speakers. Here is also a review from

Doug Schneider I still remember reading it and it influenced me in getting them.

I have also had both model nautilus and matrix series, for a period of time, same room/gear. In this case the 805 model.

These graphs

805 Matrix versus 805 Nautilus Stereophile Cabinet Resonances

Were lifted from Stereophile and show the results of cabinet resonances (Matrix 805 versus Nautilus 805).
A cumulative spectral-decay plot calculated from the output of an accelerometer fastened to the cabinet's side panel.

What can be seen is that even though the Nautilus 805 series claimed a Matrix construction, clearly the 805 Matrix and 805 Nautilus are not the same bodied duck.

Speaker makers make changes from one declared speaker version to the next version - just like car makers.

One needs to realize that the timing for the Matrix to Nautilus also happened when an extra big B&W company change was occurring. The 800 series Matrix line was the last line under the leadership of John Bowers. What followed for B&W was a change of leadership.

You can read more about the company changes
here

Like all businesses with new leaders / management, the (New Guy/Gal) is always anxious to institute immediate changes. They did just that. This resulted in new direction, objectives, and since this business is about speakers - a change in sound.

The opinion part.

These public chat forums are about opinions and sharing info. IMO - The new leadership took what was a smart "active speaker design" during a time of two channel audio focus, and changed the design to fit in more with the emerging multi channel Home Theater market. More bean counters were introduced. A very smart business move indeed. All B&W owners regardless of what kind of B&W they own should be happy with having such a strong company backing their speakers.

32Hz - 28kHz ±3dB on reference axis

This is the frequency response for the flagship 800d as published on the B&W info sheet. The 800 model namesake is no longer a full range speaker on its own. I have seen/heard two rooms with 800d in the past. In both cases a subwoofer/s was used.
One was a two channel audio setup. The other was a Home Theater setup.
If your thread was in the Home Theater section I would not have included this last bit of info here. As speakers with subs is the norm in HT. But this being an audiophile forum, and this post being in the speaker section, I thought it was relevant to show where the company focus went. Again IMO.

So imo assuming both of your speakers are functioning properly you are not imagining things. I also heard big differences in presentation of 2 channel music in my room between nautilus 805 and matrix 805 w/bass alignment filter as designed to be run by John Bowers.

Thanks for letting me ramble here. And don't let the gear get in the way of the music.

Cheers and good listening.

Danmar123 -Then I asked my Twins to come & take a listen.

Aha..I knew I had a gut sense of a common element here.
You have two channel in your blood. :^)
You have been listening to the best natural stereo, but also the most challenging to setup, no ?
Our fraternal twins have been chiseling away at us for 20 years. My music panic room was built out shortly after they were born. Hearing those cries in stereo..I can still hear them. 8^0
Ours are just now starting to ask questions and getting curious about what is downstairs. I am starting to fear for my turntable, preamp, and records. Everything else is easily replaced.

Am holding onto the white B&W Electrostatic Speakers for my daughter. The bad boy 801's for my son.

Cheers

Ct - ......Have you looked @ the new Emotive XMC-1

AMB - I am strictly two channel in my two rooms. I had an elaborate HT setup many years ago. My wife upon hearing the first helicopter land and shake the house main floor said, "that's enough of that"

So my fate was sealed. The Denon AVR 4800 from those days is still in the house, somewhere.

Some action here for the XMC-1 at AudioGon if you do a search. A quick google search shows many dedicated forums for the brand. So I see its very popular with quite the following. Let us know how you make out.

Cheers

@Mkash3

Regarding poor bass.

My personal experiences have been that poor bass is the result of user set up error. Most of the time either the room/speaker relationship and/or the speaker/amp relationship. Poor bass can happen with all speaker brands not just B&W. If you hear poor bass at an audio show (very common) it is usually due to the room/speaker relationship, because the manufacturers and dealers usually bring compatible gear that has worked for them in their personal set ups. (process of elimination)

Specific to B&W - my experiences are to do good bass with them needs amps/s with "balls", as they have stubborn British woofers and unrelenting tweeters that tell all. There is no cover up happening here. Whether with the gear or the source material. You need amps that will take full control of the woofers. If this is not done your sound will not be balanced. You will know when your setup is off because bass will have little definition between bass notes, will be mediocre, and not dynamic. This in turn leads to an over emphasis on the highs - making them tizzy and harsh; all because of the amps inability to control the bottom end. The speakers will sound mechanical. You will not hear the music.

Being able to pressurize a room is important in getting good bass. A rule of thumb; any solid state amp must have the capability to double down. If 200 wpc at 8 ohms - they will do 400 at 4 ohms. From the tube amp side a robust amp that can be tapped on 4 ohms to control the B&W woofers. How many wpc is depending on room volume, listening habits, and woofer cabinet size(physics) unless you are using equalizers of some sort. Every body's room is different. If your struggling with poor bass listing out your equipment is not enough. You should post a picture.

You can have a full range 20hz - 20khz speaker set up wrong - you will get poor bass. You can also have a bookshelf speaker like an 805 that is good to 35-40 hz and if set up right will sound lovely. On its own depending on the music or with a sub. How good it will sound based on user setup.

805 Matrix S.Phile Review

As another example my Wayne Picquet Quad 57's have bass down to 40 hz. You can hear the notes. But their db level on the bass notes compared to the midrange and up is way down. Still for certain music like a Jazz trio/singer they are excellent even without subs.

Cheers

Danmar123 - I have a MK mx 125.2 push/pull for my sub which is set up behind the couch, really adds to the madness.

:^)

I have found behind the couch or other room boundary near to the listening position, is an excellent location for a sub especially when matching up with ESL speakers. Sometimes, not the most aesthetic depending on the room layout. If this is a problem it can be hidden / disguised when not in use by covering it with one of your wife's favorite knitted quilts, and her favorite wedding or family portrait on top.