They do have much to answer for.I bought an AVP 4-5 years ago ($12000 aus dollars). I ordered an upgrade middle of 2003(for which I was going to pay $5000 aus) and was ultimately informed that they (Harman) were not going to "be able" to fill my order(obviously low priority in Australia). I had rung them personally in September and was told I would have the upgrade in a month...it is outrageous and I do think it needs to be brought to the publics attention by all who are willing and able |
I share your thoughts and frostrations. I just completed the same battle with HGS with certain Dave Ward. As I see it, Madrigal has publically misled its customers and the its competitors through false advestisement. Die hard owners should get together demand what was not only a promise, but the separating factor in chosing Madrigal from other brands, much less expensive, but very capable of doing the job.
Right now, HGS, is touting the Lexicon as the replacement for the PAV/PDSD, and future upgrade to the likes of the AVP. I say that's bull....!
The letter, I received from Madrigal, when they decided to discontinue the PAV/PDSD stated Mark Levinson are more alike than we can possibly imagine. They share similar platforms and software; cosmetic difference, yes; parts and sound quality not so differnt. So...as it is said... what good for the gender is also good for the rest of us..NO 40...as I see it, same software upgrade to PAV/PDSD!
Die Hard Owners make some noise, "FUTURE PROOF" your system, as you had chosen to do upon your purchase of the PDSD to mate with the PAV. |
From what I have heard, the AVP2 is worth $4000 towards
a MC-12. As I see it, I couldn't justify $6000 to move to
a MC-12. Plus you would take a hit on 2 channel listening |
Gerry,
You can still access the proceed website in its limited
state (i.e. just manuals).
Go to http://www.harmanspecialtygroup.com/
and click on Proceed Audio under the quick links menu.
HTH, |
Proceed (Madrigal.com) was offering up until Jan 31, 2004 a upgrade offer. They would give you 3000.00 for your PDSD/PAV towards the purchase of a Lexicon MC8 I think. The one that is $6000.00. They also mentioned that they will be offering a similar deal for trading up to Mark Levinson products as soon as they are up and running again. I haven't read all the posts on this board so maybe someone already mentioned this. So it seems that Harmon isn't dumping all of its Proceed customers. |
The Proceed web site is now gone. The HK web site does not have any information on Proceed or any links. If this is how HK is going to treat and support Proceed owners then we need to make sure that our fellow Audiogoners are aware how they are going to treat them in the future.
Gerry |
I think this is a great idea. I communicated with people at Levinson a year ago on these topics and while courteous didn't really get definitive answers. Obviously that is why we are at this point. I am a heavy madrigal owner and woudl hope they are concerned about the marketing impact of dissing this group of loyal customers. I had one of the original pav units and bought the digital upgrade with promises of forever upgradability. Didn't happen but ML did give me a generous trade in when I purchased a Media 40. I also have the AVP2,PMDT, two sets of Revel speakers ect. Frankly if they don't do something for AVP2 owners and particularly suffering PMDT owners I am tempted to dump the lot go in a different direction and let my feelings be heard long and loud on this site as well as with dealers around the country I have dealt with. I picked up my AVP2 after the reorganization based on Harmans assurance that the unit would be supported under the ML line.I agree that at least the software on the avp2 could be supported for a period of time and the cost to the company would be easily overridden by the value of good will created. Any company giving that kind of support and honoring its commitment to customers would reap a large dividend in customer feedback. |
Ht4me - These are all good ideas. I'm in the midst of doing a little "key contacts" research. I'll let you know what I find.
Great idea about the gathering of press! Do you have a screen shot or hard copy of http://www.madrigal.com/proceed2002/avp.htm ? This link now just directs you to the Harman home page.
I don't think it would be a bad thing to aim a little high on the requests. Trade-in offers to Levinson gear is a good idea...assuming that Levinson continues to live up to it's name. Have you heard that Class A has hired 2 top Levinson engineers? Thier processor & DVD transport that are coming out are supposed to be hot stuff in a similar-to-Proceed price range. Though I think our investments, as you've said, are worth the effort.
Identifying Levinson/Proceed owners IS key. Where else on the internet do these guys hang out? One of my local dealers has completely washed their hands of anything Harman. They're a VERY customer oriented dealer & they took the lack of info & returning phone calls, when their customers wanted to know, as a sign of doom for Harman. They feel Harman lacks integrity & refuse to work with companies of such. My other dealer patiently hangs in there & has said they are trying to work with Harman on moving forward. Maybe my rep there can be of help. |
As I see it, we need to gather the following and go from there.
1- Identify key contacts (and addresses) at Harman International and Harman specialty group. I have started a list here, but need to verify addresses and see if there are others we want to mail.
Wayne Morris
President
Harman Specialty Group,
3 Oak Park Dr.,
Bedford, MA 01730-1441.
Dr. Sidney Harman
Executive Chairman Harman International
Bernard Girod
Vice Chairman and CEO Harman International
Gregory Stapleton
President and COO Harman International
Frank Meredith
Executive VP and CFO Harman International
(Is this the corporate headquarters???)
Harman International Industries, Inc.
250 Crossways Park Drive
Woodbury, NY 11797
Erich Geiger
CTO and Chairman Harman/Becker
??(Becker Division) GmbH
??Postfach 74 22 60
??D-76303 Karlsbad, Germany
2- Put together a collection of press releases, Sales Bulletins and correspondence from Madrigal and Harman with all their promises and assurances which we can reference in our letters. We need to have names, dates and sources so we can sustantiate our claims. Some examples:
http://www.madrigal.com/proceed2002/avp.htm
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1049600224&read&keyw&zzproceed
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/newsflash/madrigal-mark-levinson-4-2003.html
3- Identify a realistic list of requests (not pie in sky, but obtainable). Possible ideas...
-Provide software updates for the AVP2 for 2 or 3 years.
I doubt they have the resources to develop new hardware
for the AVP2, but they did claim the No.40's software
was easily ported to the AVP2. 2 or 3 years of updates
seems resonable to me.
-Provide an affordable upgrade/trade-in to the next
Media console (the No40 complimenting unit Wayne Morris
alluded to in his "important notice" on their website)
(AVP2 owners). They did tell us we would be able to
upgrade our AVP2s to Levinson's, didn't they?
-Provide an affordable upgrade/trade-in to the upcoming
Levinson DVD player (for PMDT owners). A lot of us have
already invested $6k to $7.5k (PVP option) to help them
debug and learn about DVDs.(they probably should just
trade us even(wishful thinking, probably pie in the sky?)).
-Other ideas here
4- Draft a template letter which we can all use as a starting point in drafting our letters to Harman. This template should include:
-expressing our displeasure about being dropped by them
-any and all horror stories of what we have endured as
loyal customers while they worked on fixing all their
bugs. And should include how much money you have
invested and how much down time you have suffered.
-mention how the resale value of our equipment has plummeted.
-List our requests and reference all the promises,
claims and assurences they have made.
-mention how this will not only make things right with
their Proceed customers, but will be a great PR move
in attracting new customers.
-Other ideas here...
5- Identify and solicit Levinson owners to write letters to Harman supporting us. I don't think they can afford to alienate them too.
6- I wonder what the dealers can do to asist us as well?
Let me know what you think. Once we refine this we can do a new post to get the letters rolling.
Cheers, |
The easy part is sending the letter, the tougher part
is to get enough people to commit and send the letters.
I believe that they need to get buried with mail to have
a real effect. So we need to identify our goal, which
I believe should be to have the AVP2 get software updates
when the No40 gets them. I don't think we have any chance
of getting any thing for the PMDT though.
If all agree this is the objective, we now need to rally
the troups. It would be awesome if we could get Levinson
owners to request it too.
So how do we rally the troups? |
Ht4me - Any thoughts on getting the ball rolling on getting together & confronting Harman???
Petergc - Half my display went out on my AVP as well. When it popped, it put a divit in the display lense. Got my display replaced under warranty, The divit remains.
Go into the AVP menu, then "custom" and scroll down to make sure link is set to "on". |
As I don't use a subwoofer the crossover changes are less important to me, but I would love to have access to PrologicII. Is this a major improvement on standard Prologic.
Unfortunately, I cannot find any AVP2 or upgrade kits in UK, and would prefer not to buy a US model with the resultant need for voltage change.
Certainly I remain enthralled with the sound quality from the standard AVP, both on film TV and music.
One question, on the demo unit I am trialling, all the lights on the buttons came on together suddenly last night. Whilst they went off again, I have now lost the first four digits of the display, which is a bit irritating/worrying. Has anyone experienced this?
Secondly, I have linked the AVP to the AMP5 using the PHAST ports, but this doesn't seem to result in the AVP controlling the AMP as I expected. Standby on the remote still only affects the AVP. Am I doing something wrong?
Peter |
The complement to the No.40 I heard was going to be
around $15/20K.
Think about it, the MC-8 is at the same price mark as
the AVP2, the MC-12B is $10k, and not a lot of people
can afford $30k (atleast not since the .com bubble
bursted). Also, I believe this new unit is more than
a year off. Don't forget, they are working on a
Levinson DVD player too.
Moving forward, we/us Proceed die-hards need to unite
and pressure Harman to live up to thier promises
starting with the promised software upgrade which gives
the AVP2: Ultra2, DTS:NEO6, DTS96/24, etc...(as promised
on the Proceed webpage). This is already available as
version 2.00 for the No.40, and they claimed the two
units shared the same software. So as I see it, they
owned Madrigal when the promise was made, they own the
promise. |
Yes...and I hear it's gonna be $20/$30k. |
I was wondering whether anyone had more info on what's going on with Levinson. I went to the web site and the pres. said they were doing a processor to complement the 40. It also mentioned that they were not in full production. What's the story? |
Joemt - I was speaking of the AVP to AVP2 upgrade. There was no upgrades from the software (at least from the version that came with my kit). The AVP2 upgrade kits are no longer available. I found a dealer that had one sitting on the shelf.
Ksales - No, all those ideas were thrown out the window. They're not currently planning any low cost Levinson processers either. How do ya like them rotten apples!?
Petergc - The AVP2 sounds so much better. Had mine a week & haven't come across any bugs yet. Seems like a fairly stable piece. One bug I found in the AVP was that if you set the crossover on anything but the default 80hz and the unit looses power (not on standby), the crossover defaults back to 80...and the AVP didn't work well with the PVP card in my PMDT either. The only negative I found w/the AVP2 is that it only allows a max 100hz crossover rather than the AVP's 120hz which worked better for my MCC1 center speaker. But the ability to set different crossovers w/the 2 outweighs that. |
I think I'm about to join the ranks of Proceed owners, having been offered an AVP (not AVP2)and AMP5 ex dem in UK. This kit is not common over here. I know that there is no future support, although I thought I might be able to get an AVP2 upgrade. The sound quality just seems better than anything else I've tried, especially on music. I've listened to the Arcam, TAG, Bryston, Naim,and none come close (OK the Bryston comes close, but costs £3k more in Uk v the ex-dem Proceed price.
I am a bit worried about bugs, however, as I have been advised that the AVP can buzz and click on DTS.
Any experience of this, or indeed of the brand.
Pete |
Is the AVP line not going to be melded into Levinson? I haven't seen anything to indicate it was going to be dropped. I thought this was going to be the lower cost media 40 alternative. |
What AVP2 upgrade are you speaking of?
What features? or bug fixes?
Joe |
