Denon DL 103 vs DL 103R

Grimace, some terminology might help to start with.

Preamps include a built in phono stage, otherwise it would be called a line stage.

Phono stages are separate units that can be paired with a line stage or added to a preamp line input. They perform at least two functions: RIAA compensation and some level of gain for the small level cartridge output signal. Many will provide only 35-40 dB or so gain, these will be designated MM (although they may work with high output MC cartridges). Some may provide two gain levels (low and high) and will be designated MM and MC. A very few could be high gain only and thus identified for MC.

Phono step-up devices contain only gain stages. They may be active circuits or transformer based. They do not include RIAA compensation so must be connected to a low gain phono stage when a low output cartridge (MC) is used.

If you want to try a Denon 103 or 103R, you have three choices. First would be to find a step up device (Denon introduced one about the same time as the original 103 and these can be found used for modest prices) to insert between your Rotel phono input and your tt. Second would be to get a phono stage designated for MC to insert between your Rotel line input and your tt. Third would be to replace your Rotel with a preamp that includes a MC input. I believe the 103 has 0.3 mV output and the 103R 0.4 mV if that guides you to the gain level needed.

I do not have experience with the cartridges you list so cannot comment on their differences. However, as you may have read, several hobbyists use one or the other of these Denon models, modified either for "nude" or wood bodied operation, and report they replaced cartridges costing more than the Sonata or Blackbird. Search the archives here and on Vinyl Asylum and draw your own conclusions.

Grimace, you missed a point when you said "It does seem like the step-up transformers are considerably less expensive that full phone stages." As I tried to explain, a full phono stage includes both RIAA compensation and at least one gain stage. A step up transformer is only a gain stage so it cannot function by itself, it must feed a phone stage with the RIAA compensation. That is why they are (sometimes) less expensive.

Also, thanks Hdm for the correction on the 103R output.

Grimace, to operate either Denon straight into a phono stage, it should provide at least 60 dB of gain. Many will do so. And not to get you sidetracked here but offering adjustable loading would be important too. At the very least you will want to bring the load down from the standard 47K ohms to 100 or even less.

Now, a different consideration. I just checked your system and see you will be using a Grace 707 arm. If I remember correctly, this is a low mass arm so will not match well (resonance frequency) with either Denon cartridge.

To simplify your life (minimal purchases) I would suggest you research cartridges with 1.0 mV output or higher that are compatible (high compliance) with your 707 arm and that fall within your budget. This could be either a high output MC or a MM. Learn the proper set up procedure (archive search here and Vinyl Asylum) and go for it. After listening and learning about differences in SRA and VTF, see how well you are enjoying your system. Then, if need be you can begin to consider improvements. Good luck.

In simple terms regarding compliance, low compliance (stiff suspension) cartridges like the Denon should normally be matched with high mass (heavier) arms. Conversely, high compliance (springy suspension) cartridges should be matched with low mass (lighter) arms. Fortunately, medium matches with medium.

I'm sorry if later posts sounded inconsistent with my first advice but I did not originally realize you would be using the 707. For that reason, I changed direction on you. Don't worry, we all have a learning curve.

But I am bothered by your statement that you're trying to adjust VTF (vertical tracking force) at 6 grams and your counterweight is far back on it's stub. First off, 6 grams is very heavy - a typical range would be 1.0 to 2.0 g., or 2.5 at most, with modern cartridges. Second, moving your counterweight toward the back will lighten the tracking force (remember childhood experience on a teeter-totter). I believe something is drastically wrong from your description. I suggest before asking any more questions you research cartridge set up on the A'gon, Vinyl Asylum, and Vinyl Engine. Again, good luck.

Sorry Grimace, here we go again. You apparently failed to understand what I wrote or I failed to state it clearly.

Moving your counterweight further back will REDUCE your tracking force. If you must move it back to increase your measured force, something is drastically wrong. And your lightweight 6.6 gram cartridge makes this more the case. If anything, with your set up it would seem you could not get close to the recommended tracking weight with your counterweight all the way forward (closest to the pivot point).

Next, published frequency response of a cartridge (never believable anyway) has nothing to do with compliance and resonant frequency. even though both may be stated in Hz. The resonant frequency should be below the lowest frequency on a record but not so low as potential rumble with your turntable. This is why the 7 or 8 Hz to 12 Hz range is often recommended, it falls between these critical areas.

So, at this point before you: a) take further steps to set your VTF (BTW your Shure instructions should tell you to measure with the brush up but compensate the force accordingly), b) consider installing your Grace arm on your Thorens, or c) begin shopping for a cartridge other than your Shure, STOP and do more research on cartridge installation and adjustments. I recommended some sources previously. Please, I hope I do not offend you (I'm trying to help) but your replies indicate you do not have basic understanding about the workings of tables/arms/cartridges. Further questions at this point are not productive until you gain a better grasp of these relationships. Some other choices to Google are Laura Dearborn and Robert Harley who have written very good introductions such as you need.

Again, good luck with this, Don't get discouraged because eventually you will be rewarded with understanding and then some great music.

Piedpiper, even if we end up cross posting, we are both trying to help Grimace set up to enjoy music. Anyway, I believe Hdm's last post offered a good summary.

It is apparent that Grimace has a real problem -

"The problem I have with the counterweight is that in order to get the tracking force down below 2g as recommended, I have to really turn the counterweight out pretty far to the point where its hitting the cover"

Moving the counterweight all the way to the rear of the stub, or adding extra weight, does not make sense to me either with a 6.6 gram cartridge. Perhaps getting the friend he borrowed the stylus force gage from to look at his set up could save further posting here.