Denon DL 103 vs DL 103R

Could you clarify "recognizing that I might need a phono stage with these"

What cartridge are you currently using? Does your Rotel have a built in phono stage? If not, what phono stage are you using with your Thorens/Grace set up? Do you mean a step up device? You may need one for the Denons but not for the Grado or Sumiko.

I wouldn't worry about the 103R being clinical per se; just a little more in that direction from the 103.

ditto Pryso. Not to confuse you but bear in mind that cartridge output specs can be referenced two ways, for example a .8mV@3.54cm/sec is the same as 1.13mV@5cm/sec. They don't always tell you which reference they use so a little research on what the standard is for that company is in order. As a further example, the Medium output MCs from Benz are .8mV@3.54cm/sec. This would be sufficient output for your phono stage and their compliance of 15 would be a minimum for that arm. The Denon 103 and 103R have a very low compliance of 5. Most MCs are going be a marginal match for that arm compliance-wise.

Compliance is the resistance to deflection from the centered resting position, or stiffness, of the cantilever which is the tiny "arm" that the stylus itself is attached to. The cantilever hinges on a donut of rubber and has the magnet or coil assembly attached to the internal end. It is the movement of this assembly in relation to the fixed coils or magnets that generates the signal. In the case of a MM or moving magnet cartridge, a small magnet is attached to the end of the cantilever and the coils are fixed in the body of the cartridge, thus the name, moving magnet. Moving magnet type cartridges usually are more compliant, or more flexible, in the neighborhood of 15-30, to make up for the higher mass of the magnets. Moving coil cartridges typically are less compliant, or stiffer, 5-15, to stabilize the lower mass of the coils. The relationship of arm mass to cartridge compliance involves balancing the effective mass of the arm with the cartridge weight and compliance such that the resonant frequency of the arm/cartridge system is lower than the lowest musical information but higher than the frequency where foot falls and record warps factor in. That frequency range is from 8-12 hz. In order to ensure an appropriate resonant frequency, the effective arm mass, typically between 6 and 18 grams, plus the cartridge weight, typically between 4 and 13 grams, plus the weight of the mounting hardware, about 1/2 gram, multiplied by the compliance, needs to be between 174 and 400. I'm not sure what the effective mass of the Grace 707 is but is definitely on the very low end. I'm guessing the resonant frequency of the Grace/Denon combo would be about 20hz, not good.

I don't follow your comment about the weight of the Shure and the position of the counter weight. The Shure at 6 grams is on the light side of average. This would put your counter weight closer to the pivot, not further out. Have you mounted the cartridge properly and is your arm intact and put together correctly? How are you measuring the tracking force?

I was assuming you the 6 grams was referring to the weight of the cartridge, not the VTF. Is that correct?

In case you are confused, VTF for the Shure M97xE should be set for 1.25 grams. Cartridge weight is 6.6 grams.

2.75g is not "a little heavy." It is grossly overweight. In any case, sounds like the later addition of that extra ring weight is the ticket. Perhaps you could improvise something to that effect. This may well serve you regardless of what cartridge you spring for.

Your interpretation of the MM compliancy issue is incorrect. The amount the cantilever moves is dependent on the groove, not the compliancy. The high compliancy of a MM is offset by the higher mass of the magnet. This high moving mass is what makes MMs not as detailed as their MC brethren. The coils on a MC are much lower mass than the magnets of the MM thus making them less sluggish. In addition, low output MCs use less coils with less mass, making them even more responsive and thusly more refined. This is why people go to great lengths to accommodate the very low outputs of these cartridges. There are, of course, other mitigating factors. The ring magnets of the Transfiguration carts, for instance, very closely coupled to very small, low impedance coils, have quite healthy outputs, thus providing the best of both worlds.

It sounds like from your tracking issues that you may need to address your table mounting. A good wall mount shelf could help.

Pryso,

I think Grimace made it clear that he was having difficulty getting the VTF light enough which is why he had the counter weight so far back. The extra counterweight ring would certainly help in his stated predicament. It appears that he has, perhaps, done his homework sufficiently to set the cartridge, although double checking couldn't hurt. It looks like you and I may be cross posting due to the delay in the posting process. ;-)