DENAFRIPS DAC ---- Owner Impressions, Feedback, General Discussion, Questions and more....

Denafrips Ares up for sale on usam..  Price is OK.  $525.

Rich

bluewolf
And my speaker system features a Lightspeed Attenuator. Thank you George aka @georgehifi !

Hi bluewolf, had a look at your very nice system in your bio, and can't see where your using my Lightspeed Attenuator, this would be the 3rd set of  Pioneer Tad's it's being used with that I know, have you done some changes to it and not updated your pic?

Cheers George

@bluewolf   You are welcome! 

Your TAD 2404 speakers are gorgeous! You'll have to post updated photos with your Enigma Supertweeters and the Denafrips Terminator in system.

Thanks for the link to your review. I will post on your thread later today.

Thanks David aka @david_ten for this thread. For my review of the mighty Terminator fed by the Jay's Audio CDT-3 MK2 CD transport please see:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/denafrips-terminator-jay-s-audio-cdt-3-mk2-a-review

And my speaker system features a Lightspeed Attenuator. Thank you George aka @georgehifi !

@drrnc2 I have found pretty much the opposite--the better the DAC (or perhaps any link in the chain) the better the marginal recording sounds.

Well said, Rich.  During our get togethers at Vinh's that assertion held up.  We listened to recordings of differing quality, and in every case, the better conduit sounded better.

@jayctoy You made a wise move with the Ares.  Along the lines of the 4 products lining up so closely, the sub $700 one is the absolute no-brainer, and most obvious choice.  One gives up very little, even to the Terminator.  Of course, the chassis and overall aesthetic step forward as one moves up the ladder, if one considers those attributes critical 

milpai & georgehifi---interesting comments. I have found pretty much the opposite--the better the DAC (or perhaps any link in the chain) the better the marginal recording sounds. I am now listening to the Denafrips Venus, and compared to my previous DAC, the MHDT Stockholm 2, I find more detail, much better sound stage, more dynamics, a slight loss of warmth. My general sense is that the more your system can "get out of the way", that is, the less noise your components add to the stream, the better the recording sounds. Overall, I think that playback gear is catching up to digital recording and allowing a more representative image of whats on the disc. Just my $.02

Rich

milpai

Interesting DAC. I have followed this thread for a few days now. So was wondering what’s up with the guys at Audiostream. They compared 4 DACs and found the Terminator to be "confusing". Because Denafrips don’t advertise in their rag?

To me when a system get really good at resolving, it a bit like big screen tv’s. The flagship tv models are magnificent with HD input but are worse than the same size low end model with SD input.

Same to me goes for audio, the better the component the better it is on great recordings, but they sound rubbish on bad recordings.
It’s like the other not so great component, throws a ban-aid on the music to equalise good from bad recordings like the low end tv above does.

This statement from the reviewer kind of say that to me.
" The Denafrips won the award for the most confusing DAC as you never knew what you’d get from a recording when played through it!
Read more at https://www.audiostream.com/content/great-dac#6OCdCOe5RwkRDQJ9.99 "


Cheers George

Interesting DAC. I have followed this thread for a few days now. So was wondering what's up with the guys at Audiostream. They compared 4 DACs and found the Terminator to be "confusing". Because Denafrips don't advertise in their rag?

Glad to see this level of enthusiasm for Vinh's room, including the DENAFRIPS.

Now that there's some distance between the show, I'd like to hear more perspectives.

As for me, my opinion remains the four products slot far closer than one would expect or believe.  As stated previously, I needed to work at distinguishing them, including the entry level Ares from the statement Terminator.  You do get more from moving up the ladder: more solidity, more heft, more extension, more liquidity, more clarity.  But the improvements were, for me, subtle, only identifiable in direct comparison, and even at that, requiring my full attention.  It seemed to reflect what spending more time, effort, and funds on a power supply typically yields.  And after thinking on this, I don't see the value of the four products, and wonder if there's any sense in combining the middle products into a single offering.

Finally, I'm not currently up on the SOTA digital, but the DENAFRIPS products certainly show me how much things have improved over the years.  Still, to my ears, the sad conclusion is we're still not knocking on the door of what analog provides 

More coverage from Stereophile:
From "Jason Time-Travels to Day Three" by Jason Victor Serinus / Stereophile

"In case you haven't guessed what I'm going to say, the 15th floor's Gingko Audio system continued the trend of fine albeit warm sound. Whether on a Bach Three-Part Invention by Bela Fleck, Joshua Bell, and Edgar Meyer or the "Saga of Harrison Crabfeathers" from Brian Bromberg, I heard a lively top and all-pervasive warmth. Ditto for a 2L hi-rez track from Britten's Simple Symphony, where admirable liquidity was tempered by sweetness and warmth.

Heard: Gingko Audio ClaraVU 7 Mk. 3 system speakers ($9000/pair), Triode Corp of Japan TRX-P3M monoblocks ($6500/pair), Wells Audio Commander preamp ($4000), Denafrips Terminator DAC ($4500), Salk Stream Player Gen 3 server ($1700), Danacable and TruStream cabling, and Gingko Audio ARCH vibration-control devices ($200-$400)."

There is also coverage from the Audio Bacon site
Vinh Vu

Congratulations, Vinh! 

From "Day Two with Herb" by Herb Reichert / Stereophile.

"I always enjoy visiting Vinh Vu, president of Gingko Audio and Danacable. He plays music I like, always gets good sound, and helps me understand the sometimes-unusual lineup of products he demonstrates. This year was no exception.

The $9000 Made in America Gingko Audio ClaraVU 7 Mk.3 modular speaker system consists of a top-mounted monitor speaker with a 6.5" paper cone bass-midrange plus a 1" slightly horn-loaded silk dome tweeter, combined with a horn-loaded ribbon super-tweeter that Vinh Vu said crosses over at 20kHz. "But Vinh, my ears cross over at 10kHz!"

The bottom (bass) cabinets feature compound-loaded 6.5" cones, and stack neatly and handsomely below the monitor cabinets. Impedance is nominally 10 ohms with a specified minimum of 8 ohms. Sensitivity is 85db/1W/1m.

The $6500/pair Triode Corp of Japan TRX-P3M amplifiers employ parallel single-ended 300B tubes, which Vinh says put out 20Wpc, and I believe these handsome-looking monoblocks were the core reason every recording sounded so pure and unaffected. The longer I listened, the more I felt these amps were generating some form of distilled magic. Therefore, curiosity roused, I asked for a review sample.

The preamp was the Wells Audio Commander ($4000); the DAC was the Denafrips Terminator—a $4500 ladder DAC that I have heard a few times and also rouses my curiosity. The refined-sounding Gingko room system also included a $1700 Gen. III Salk Stream Player and, of course, Danacable's Sapphire and Diamond cabling.

Vu's system had one more very intriguing (to me) product: Under the speakers were Gingko Audio ARCHs—compact layered-wood vibrational-control devices shaped like automotive leaf springs. They come in a variety of sizes and thicknesses and look like they might actually work better than pointy spikes, pliant silicone, or hard roller-ball bearings. There was a lot to study and think about in Vinh Vu's room."

@randyballard Yes we use the same Danacable TruStream USB cable on all Denafrips.  We also use the same Danacable Diamond RCA ICs on all four to ensure a fair comparison, although most would not use a $1000 interconnect on a $700 Ares DAC :-)
@Alvin1118 You're welcome.  It was great fun showing off the Denafrips.  The combination of the Denafrips with Gingko Audio ClaraVus/Triode 300B monoblocks/Wells Audio Commander preamp/DanaCable was magical.
Vinh Vu

Vihn -  I was in the room 2x on Friday. Enjoyed the presentation and great sound!  I am the guy who has a Terminator, and had not gotten a chance to get it set up at that time.  Now I have!  Wow!  Great sound!  The buzz on the web is not exaggeration!

Were you using the Danacable USB cable to connect the Terminator at the show?

Guys,

It seems that the show went really well! Hope you guys enjoy the music with DENAFRIPS DAC in Room 1524!

Thank you @bube  Vinh Vu and team! Without them, the show couldn't have been possible. 

Respect!

Rgds,
Alvin @ VINSHINE

@jayctoy   That's awesome! Great that the Ares is working out for you. Congratulations.

After things calm down from the show, maybe we can all share our impressions on the DENAFRIPS - sonics, price, and otherwise

@trelja  +1  Looking forward to hearing more.

My first comparison between Gumby and my Ares is on my second system, Tekton impact monitor, and viva integrated, Yamaha 2100 sacd, In a couple of days or maybe this weekend, I will try to connect the Ares to my main system, using Omega rs8, Andra Eggleston Speakers , marantz 8005 sacd as transport, art audio preamp and art audio amp.My Gumby is well match with my main system, iam excited , how the Ares will perform in my main system, I would say both Gumby and Ares if properly match they are both spectacular unit....

Before you buy expensive Dacs try one of the Denafrips they are excellent...and musical

I don’t know how Denafrips does it, The four dacs are excellent, I end buying the Ares, in my system , it’s so palpable , good imaging, slam, extension, very dynamic,  musical, it’s better than my Gumby in this system..Iam impress.Vinh thank you sir, for accommodating my wife with good selection of music..Thank Richard and Norman....

David , yes my friend , iam having a good time...

Trelja. I came back to listen again, my friends are very impress with all the Denafrips ..David it’s a blessings to hear all four...

@jayctoy sounds like you're really enjoying yourself!

Would like to hear your impressions of how the Gumby sounded in the show system.

After things calm down from the show, maybe we can all share our impressions on the DENAFRIPS - sonics, price, and otherwise 

@jayctoy   Great to hear. Glad you enjoyed the demos!

@bube   Really cool that your first day went off so well. 

@ jayctoy Thank you for your kind words.  We had a blast with the demos.  They made the day go fast.  Looking forward to another long but exciting day today.
Vinh Vu
PS. Thanks for the tip on MingHin Restaurant.  The food was delicious!

Update from AXPONA:
We had a pretty busy day today, unusual for a Friday at the show.  Foot traffic was steady all day and we were able to hold quite a few demos with very attentive and responsive audiences.  As the pre-production Wells Audio Commander preamp has only two inputs we ran the demo for just two DACs.  So we let the audience pick one of the other models to compare with the Terminator without telling them which one was playing.  After a couple of minutes playing the same musical passage we asked them to describe any differences they heard.  Amazingly most of them can describe the differences readily even though they were subtle, as all the Denafrips have a familiar "house sound".  We had fun doing the demos and it seems that the audience did too.
We expect a very busy day today and plan to run these demos as planned on the hour but will accommodate with impromptu on-demand demos if the room is full and the audience is game.
So show up with your best ears for a fun time.
Vinh Vu
PS.  By the way, we are running a show special of the Gingko Audio ARCHs for the duration of the show.  Use the coupon code AXPONA18 to get 18% off retail on ARCHs on the Gingko website.

David the pizza are always warm ready, beer remain cold waiting for you...I heard your terminator , indeed a very good DAC..,

Let me first thank Vinh , Gingko crew, Dana cables, they are so cool, nice and very patience, Trelja you review on the  four demo .Denafrifs are right on the money, very very accurate.This are very good DACS, Vinh is so good in explaining.Alvin thank you for sending all those DACS , I could sense most of the listener enjoyed them..You choose the right people to represent those Dacs....

@bube Vinh Vu, thank you for bringing the complete DENAFRIPS DACs to the AXPONA!

My best wishes to a very successful show, I'm sure it will be!

Many thanks.

Rgds,
Alvin @ VINSHINE AUDIO

Update from AXPONA:
We worked all day to get the system dialed in and it is sounding mighty fine!
Besides the Denafrips, we also have the world premiere of the new Wells Audio Commander preamp that takes the system up a notch.
Can't wait to the show opening tomorrow!
Vinh Vu

@jayctoy   I'll be up in your neck of the woods, sooner than later...so keep the pizza warm and the beer cold! And your gear cooking!

Looking forward to your impressions of the Denafrips DACs, etc. and anything else Axpona related you want to share.

Enjoy the Show.

@jayctoy ,
Will wait to hear from you and others on this thread on the Denafrips Terminator. Will there be any comparisons with other DACs?

David since you can't come you miss your Chicago pizza and beer, but for sure you will read my comparison on Monday.i can't wait...😀

David I will be attending 3 days, will bring my Gumby and maybe my friend Metrum onyx, Vinh and I and my friends will listen after show hrs....

@bube Vinh, I’m sure you and others are busy setting up today.

Looking forward to hearing all about it when you get to take a breather after the show.

Wishing you all the best and a terrific show for your Gingko and Danacable product lines as well your Denafrips demos.

I also want to thank both Rich @drrnc2 and Joe @trelja for sharing your experiences and findings from Vinh’s event in NJ. Good stuff. Thank You!

@austinpop We plan to the demo at least on the hour but we are going to be flexible.  So if we have a full room and the attendees would like a demo we will be happy to oblige.  The demo will be an abbreviated one unlike the session we had which took more than an hour.  For the sake of simplicity, the demo at the show will be between the Terminator and another Denafrips model of the audience choosing and it will not be a blind test.  We can switch between the two models but you will know which one is playing. To be sure to see the demo come on the hour, or just show up and hope for a full room :-)
See you this weekend.
Vinh Vu

Hi Vinh @bube 

A friend alerted me to this thread. Very interesting methodology and findings. I am going to be at AXPONA. How do I make sure to engage with the demo there? Did I read you were doing one every hour? Or is there a "special" session that has to be signed up for ahead of time?

Please advise!

I too ( the attendee from MD) attended the very enjoyable session at Vinh's  this past weekend, and first want to thank Vinh for his gracious hosting of this get together and effectively managing the setup and flow of the afternoon.  And for me it was also (in agreement with trelja above) a most congenial and collegial group and we surprised me with our high level of agreement/analysis on the afternoon's activity and outcomes.

Vinh set things up so that the process was experimentally "blind" to the  rest of us.  We did not know which models we were hearing/comparing and we , not Vinh, were the ones that chose the units to be used in the pairings (and that was done in a random fashion with us drawing numbered beans from a bowl and not knowing which bean represented which Denafrips model).  And for the most part we didn't reveal our impressions to each other until the end of the "test" sessions. We were of course, at some level of consciousness, aware of the in vivo reactions of each other as the session progressed.   

At the end of the "testing" , through discussion we each revealed our personal focus as to what makes a component/system sound "good", and despite the usual differences in these factors, we pretty much agreed on the degree to which the Denafrips models contributed to our preferences.  Bube (Vinh) and Joe (trelja) have described that above.  As Joe stated, it was a very unusual occurrence that several 'audiophiles' unanimously agreed on the afternoon's results!!

The Denafrips models have much to offer our community and I hope many of you will have the opportunity to drop by the Gingko room (Rm 1524) at AXPONA to hear them.  I will have the privilege of being there to help Vinh present.

Rich 

Along with Al, Doug, Rich, Rick, and of course, Vinh, I also attended yesterday's DENAFRIPS demo.

Vinh did an excellent job laying out how everything went.  The cameraderie was fantastic, and I enjoyed one of the best audio get togethers in a long while.  It felt like we were all longtime friends.   I'll add a few things, and surely will some of the others.  Maybe I'm wrong, and will get corrected here, but it seemed like we didn't diverge much, if at all, in our opinions.  Quite the surprise, as unanimity happens rarely in this hobby.

As Vinh mentioned, the overriding theme became the excellent DENAFRIPS house sound.  Outside of one outlier, the Venus, due to less break in than the other three, I found the distance between the Ares, Pontus, and Terminator far less than what anyone, myself included, would have thought.  Especially, in light of Dana's previous comments.   Moving up each rung brought a subtle but discernible improvement in clarity, separation, refinement, and weight.  What's a bit difficult for me to understand and explain is how small that difference was in light of everyone agreeing on the ultimate ranking.   Really, what separates the $760 Ares from the $5000 Terminator requires effort from the listener (or, at least, me) to come to.  That said, does the product line make more sense with three offerings instead of four?

Later, we also spent a bit of time with the Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ and a non-oversampling Metrum model from less than a decade ago.   The latter saw itself easily outclassed by the rest of yesterday's participants, and having served as a more than adequate component during the time it was offered, shows how much the past decade has benefited digital music reproduction.   The Mytek presented real competition for the products we listened to yesterday.  I didn't pay deep enough attention to it, and we didn't A / B with the DENAFRIPS offerings while I was there to accurately rate it, but it surely held its own.  The preamplifier, phono, filter options, and American assembly only add to its appeal.

As some have brought up, DENAFRIPS success in the North American market will reflect it investing in building the requisite infrastructure or not.

In the end, I feel a bit unsure about where to recommend a person getting in.  The Ares is a straight up no brainer.  For me, the question becomes, does it make more sense for one wanting to spend more to get more to consider one of the middle units, or step all the way up to the Terminator?

Look out AXPONA show goers, you're in for a real treat in Vinh's room!

@bube   Congratulations on a successful demo and test for the upcoming Axpona show. 

If any of the participants are active on Audiogon, it would be great hearing their takes on the demonstration event Vinh organized.

The dry run of the demo was a successful and fun event for everyone involved.  The process I had planned on went without a hitch, the feedback was plentiful and helpful, the food was good, the music was great, and the company was even better.  What I got out of the meeting were:

- All four models have a similar Denafrips "house sound" that was enjoyed by all
- Even though it was a blind test (none in the audience knew which model was playing until the end when they have already formed and written down their opinion), the results were as expected, with one (explainable) exception - everyone picked the Terminator as their favorite and the models' performances were commensurate with their price points, except the Venus, which sounded a little constricted (less open-sounding).  That is probably due to the fact that the Venus had the least number of hours of break-in as compared to the other models (I have had the Terminator for almost 2 months and the Ares and Pontus were review samples).  So the Venus needs some more break-in time before AXPONA.
- For the demo at AXPONA, a pairwise comparison between the Terminator and whichever model has the most interest from the audience - e.g., its price point is right - playing the same musical passages in quick successions would be best to show their respective performances.
- The system sounded right with all genres of music and is primed to show off well at the show.

Thanks to all participants, who came from NJ, NY, PA, and MD (whose representative drove 3 hours each way to attend the event, thank you Richard).   AXPONA here we come!
Vinh Vu
Gingko Audio and Danacable

A demo is meant to outline differences if they exist in the way the DACs sound. The difference maybe so subtle that they essentially sound the same. Where there are differences significant enough, one should be able to describe them. That is more important than whether one likes one DAC over the other as that is a totally subjective judgment.

+ Perfect! 

Vinh, I wish I could have attended. All the best. And most importantly, enjoy the company and the music!

Vinh agree 100%, excellent post, I hate shootout too.

Another update on the Denafrips demo at AXPON
Now that I have had a week with all four Denafrips models in my system, I thought I should summarize the goals of the demo to set the right expectation for participants.
I have taken care to ensure that all four models have had at least 200 hours of break in to make their performance comparable. I have measured their output levels to ensure that they are the same. All four are connected to the server and preamps using the same cables (Danacable TruStream USB and Diamond RCA ICs). Music control is via an IPad using Roon so that all four DACs can be grouped into one Roon zone allowing perfectly-synchronized music. So switching among the different models can be simply done via a preamp remote.

With that as the background, here is what to expect and what not to expect:

-         I call it a demo instead of a shootout because I dislike the term shootout. Shootout seems to indicate something is going to get shot down and the expectation is there will be a winner - the last one standing. Even if you compare among many makes with different sound signatures the concept of winners and losers requires a unique and definable set of measurable standards. In all my years in the business I have yet to figure out what these standards are. All I know is everyone listens differently and like different things, and each has his/her favorite sound, just like his/her favorite color. I assume that all of us listen to enjoy the musical performance and hopefully are moved emotionally by what the performer tries to communicate to us. High-fidelity is just a means to that end in that it seeks to recreate the original performance most truthfully.

-         A demo is meant to outline differences if they exist in the way the DACs sound. The difference maybe so subtle that they essentially sound the same. Where there are differences significant enough, one should be able to describe them. That is more important than whether one likes one DAC over the other as that is a totally subjective judgment.

-         As such, I find that it is more difficult to discern differences among DACs from the same manufacturer. They may all have a common “house sound” that fits the designer’s ear and any differences tend to be difficult to define. So I expect the differences are less pronounced among the different Denafrips DACs than between a  Denafrips and a comparably-priced competitor’s DAC .

-         So the results of a demo are only useful if the subjects can clearly define the audible differences so that they can be used to guide the determination whether one may like or dislike the DACs in question. One must use this information judiciously especially when the number of subjects in the test is small. A broad conclusion that one DAC is superior than another has to be based on clearly defined and universally accepted set of criteria.

-         So if the intent is not to shoot down any particular DAC but rather to describe their differences then a pairwise comparison is better than comparison among many DACs at once as it gets too confusing with more than two things to focus on at a time.

With all of the above considerations in mind, I plan to conduct the demo this way today:

-         Draw lots to assign the different Denafrips to the different inputs of the preamp so the audience does not know in advance which model they are listening to.

-         Again draw lots to select the two pairwise Denafrips models to compare first, then the other pair.

-         Play a selected music track for about one minute so the audience can get a mental picture of the performance, then repeat the same passage on another model immediately. I find that this is better than switching in real time as it is difficult to synchronize everyone’s brain to be ready at the time of the switch. Also, you will be listening to a different passage after the switching so it is difficult to correlate the characteristics of what you have heard before and after the switch.

-         Ask the test subjects to keep notes for each pairwise comparison as to whether they heard a difference and if they did to describe it.

-         After enough pairwise comparisons to discern the relative performance of the different models stop the demo and ask the audience to share with the group their findings.

-         Again, the goal is to see if there are differences among the models and if so how to describe them.

I will report findings of the session later on. They will help us decide how to streamline the demo at AXPONA so that it is most informative and helpful to the audience.

Vinh Vu

Gingko Audio and Danacable