Chris,
Here ya go again. I wrote to you personally to end this arguing, and instead you question timelines.
I write to you as an ally, and you bite my ass. Sigh....
Your request of me to not reference your designs in my ads is puzzling. Unless I'm mistaken I don't believe I mention your name directly or by specific association; I'll check again to make sure. But methinks you paint the herring red here....
I installed dedicated lines with 83802 in late 2000, which I referred to as two years ago last fall when I decided to offer the Kits. It's now been 2 1/2 years. The actual PCs were built afterward, as I didn't figure out where to get IECs until much later. Hence the post in 01. What's your point? Or are you just assailing muy integrity?
Eagle, I have no idea what Belden says about 110v use. We all are using 8380x for that, and its a dandy cable. The issue probably relates to whether the outside soft Teflon jacket is abrasion-resistant enough to use without conduit.
In most cases it is, but I suspect that most inspectors would want to see it protected further. But i have not heard of ANY problems thus far. I agree that the use of a third conductor (83803) is preferable to 83802's shield-as-ground vis-a-vis safety issues. Unfortunately the 83803 costs a full 50% more. The preferable solution is indeed to counterspiral a cheap 10THHN 12AWG ground outside the matrix, and then slide it through a conduit of some type, per Audioengineer, et al, above.
Re intellectual property: Chris' choice of 83802 as a two-pole power delivery cable is certainly insufficiently different from the intended normal use of the stuff to constitute propriety. The only difference is perhaps 24v vs 115v, if one wanted to stretch it.
I know that there are SEVERAL manufacturers of $$$ PC that use Belden's 8380x, and would certainly chuckle if presented with a cease 'n desist because someone thought of it too and asked for exclusive rights. And what would Belden have to say about it?
I can understand that someone wouldn't want to have their actual copy, diagrams, drawings. etc., electronically copied for commercial use without permission.
My only actions are to assemble the parts required to make a fine PC from a pre-existing cable along with my choice of connectors and outer jacket. It's interesting that Audioengineer posts above "his" idea for a counterwound external safety ground. By extension this is also a borrowed use of Chris' "design"? C'mon!
Chris is going to unveil a very similar cable that is completely his ownership. In this case he can rightfully control marketing, licensing, etc.
But asking for permission to use Belden 8380x in a 115v application is like me asking others to request my permission to use the slightly different-sized Yokohamas that I discovered improve the handling of Outbacks. Sure I
"discovered" the excellence of this application, but I don't doubt that others have also "designed" such an application in parallel. And why should anyone care?
Audioengineer:
I'm curious about your statement. Many of us use a floated ground in PCs to drain unwanted junk. Lower noisefloor usually results, certainly with no loss of dynamics.
I'd be grateful for more elucidation. I've enjoyed your previous technical posts. Thanks.
Chris,
As you and I have noted, DIY PC building is a satisfying, cost-effective way of enjoying our hobby inexpensively.
NOT ONE PERSON who has contacted me re power applications has referred to my Kits-assembling convenience as a theft, borrowing, or copying of another's design...especially yours! Once or twice (that's it) I've been asked about other assembly geometries that resemble "Chris' other flavors", and simply comment according to their technical merits as I see them.
My point is that there is no choice customers seem too be making re "who they want to do business with" based upon anything but totally ethical, fairly objective (we all try!), low-cost practices. I have had no derogatory feedback re your business practices, nor mine. We're both
doing a good thing here, so I really would like to see a reorientation of your perspective toward my efforts. If anything your name is held in higher esteem by those who have assembled my kit and have known about you beforehand.
I appreciate that a few enquirers know a bit about 83802 from your site before they contact me, as well, although that does seem to be a small minority of those I've communicated with.
I'm rather surprised that there would be any concern about the possibility of intellectual profiteering in my part-time endeavors marketing a $35 product when there are others out there chsrging hundreds of dollars for this "design" incognito! Guess my transparency makes me an easy target? I suggest we focus on debunking the megaprofiteers nstead of squabbling with each other.
Thanks.
Ern |
Bob's right. Except that I'd like to add that a better cable than Romex IS an improvement. I use the 12AWG all-Teflon, shielded Belden 83802, and even twist a pair to make a 9AWG for huge amps.
Simple stuff: run at least two lines, so that you can keep digital away from analog. Use 20amp duplexes with strong contacts. The Pass&Seymour, Bubbell and Cooper spec grades are nearly identical in triple-wipe thick brass contacts and back-wire construction. I use all three. Cheap and good.
I also made heavy cast-aluminum 4 outlet floating junction boxes to terminate my 3 lines. RSVP for specific details and prices. You needn't spend lots of money here, but you do want to do some basic things correctly the FIRST time! |
Eagle, Belden specifically produces semistraded (7x20AWG=12AWG) 83800 products for plenum-wiring without conduit for fire-alarms, etc. If this cable, for example, is approved for 600F test environments, then I don't see how you could have a serious problem with any electrical inspector. So far I haven't heard of ANY problems with inspection of the Belden 83802-3, for example, although I don't doubt that cheap 14AWG fine-stranded cable is prohibited.
Ern |
Oy. I don't know how you can infer that from reading this paragraph of the code. The Belden FEP dielectric is rated to 600F, and thus extremely safe for plenum use without a conduit. Its voltage rating, even at 300v (I thought it was higher), is still comfortably above the 120 it's used for.
You can even run it at 240.
The 600v issue is moot. I have seen several professional installations of 8380x that were not at all questioned re legality or hazard. 12AWG, all Teflon and copper. What's to worry? The stuff sounds GREAT, and is a couple bucks/foot.
If you're worried about an inspector not liking the 83802's twisted shield used as a bus ground, then spend the extra 50% on the 83803. End of story. $18/ft? The only stuff that I've seen that I'd like to see that perhaps REASONABLY approaches value at this cost is doubling or tripling up on the silver-coated Teflon 16AWG stuff Belden makes for a bit over $4/ft. That'd be $9/ft wholesale for 13AWG, or $13/ft for a bit bigger than 12AWG. 83802 is 1/8th the latter, and thus most reasonable for dedicated lines. Using the silver stuff might be interesting for PCs, though, eh? |
Double-oy! When I added a family-room to my house here in Medford the lectrical inspector insisted that I install a duplex in EVERY wall at least 18" long, INCLUDING the one between adjoining (20" apart!) bathroom and basement doors!
There it was: chapter, verse and line. Somehow he didn't question the oh-so-bright 83802 dedicated lines streaking from the breaker box across the basement ceiling. But then the former only proves he may be wrong on the latter. Sigh.... |
Huh? But it's rated to 300v!
I wonder if the relatively tender Teflon outer jacket is the issue here? I cover it with a clear vinyl jacket for protection and a decent "hand" in my PCKits. It'd be a shame if one had to run it through conduit or another sleeve just for code-approval, as it probably works better with its minimal all-Teflon dielectric.
When you physically look at it compared to 12/2 or 12/3 Romex it's quite a surprise to hear that it's "not recommended". Certainly the vendors I've spoken with don't question its use at 120v....
Ican think of no better-sounding affordable cable for dedicated lines. It'd be a shame if potential users are disuaded from using it because of fear of having to snip it off at both ends if "discovered" by a hawkish inspector.
Very costly to remove? At least not in Massachusetts. Code requires that all "old work" be removed ONLY when discovered upon having full access, like when a floor or ceiling are ripped up and you see a few old cut up lines sitting there (as happened to me in my 1910 house).
NO-ONE to my knowledge has ever been asked to remove, or even disconnect, an 83802/3 line used for 120v.
I don't pretend to be an expert on codes and wire insulation classification. When you cut up the 8380x and look at its construction it seems awfully sensible to use for our audio power purposes. Since it's all-Teflon dielectric I know that it couldn't possibly be reponsible for starting a fire, so I'll take my chances, being pretty confident that a personal insurance adjuster could easily protect me from an aggressive company inspector if there's ever a catastrophe. I don't mean to be argumentative. I just want this excellent,very cost-effective product to be available to us. You couldn't design or make a better power cord for 5 times the price on a small scale.... |
Thanks, Shasta.
I enclose this type (83802/3) cable in appropriate vinyl outer jackets for abrasion-resistance and tight PC connections. Nonetheless, pulling it through old lathe isn't something to be cavalier about. I suggest that naked 83802/3 be used carefully, threaded where it's visually verifiably safe, and perhaps terminated in loose "floating" power boxes rather than risking pulling across an old nail behind a lathe near an existing old duplex. But Romex is certainly at risk for the same reasons, although its junk-jacket is indeed tougher than pure soft teflon. Catch 22 again.... |
Yeah, the issue seems to be the fragility of the Teflon outer jacket, whether its red or natural. I have a good friend who's a pro independent adjuster (worked both sides of the fence for 20+ years, and is a mech e from MIT, so we always yak about wires and the old "question", of course.)
Perhaps this stuff could be run through an easy to install conduit somehow to satisfy codes? I suspect that the soft vinyl jacket I use on my PCKits isn't sufficient, either.
Does anyone know the mechanical requirements for external jacketing of house-wiring?
Seems a shame to not use such a nice, quiet, detailed and affordable 12AWG'er.
Chris..."super duper"? Does changing it from red to white, and going "softer" (19x26 vs the semi-stranded 7x20) really do anything except establish propriety? We've done well to partially debunk the snake-oil around here re PCs....
Please send that sample I ordered. I'm pretty curious to run a few single-blinds to see if there's something audibly different. Thanks. GREAT new logo you've got, too! |
Chris, Lighten up!
"pay for the designs?" Are you kidding? All one had to do (as I did), was look through a Belden catalog for a fat-gauged all-Teflon shielded cable, and there they were: 883802, 3, 4, and 6.
I installed my 8380x lines two and 1/2 years ago, well before hearing of your "flavors". I won't argue the merits of intellectual property, as I suppose one can claim to reinvent the paper clip. That you published awareness of this cable was undoubtedly a fine service, but using a two conductor cable as a power line is NOT patentable, sir!
My "commercialization" is simply to finally be the mule who assembles this magical Belden cable with good connectors, a proper good-looking outer jacket, and instructions for assembly.And for an exceptionally low price.
How the hell can you call that infringement of your "design"? I understand the bruised ego, and suspect that you're now finally motivated to make a go of it with your own production variant, but your previous posts, ads and introductory price certainly seem to cast aspersions on 8380x, and that by twisting it extra hard, coloring it like skim milk, and softening its "hand" you can somehow reinvent the wheel, and now REALLY claim "intellectual property" improvements as well. That's fine. But this is indeed small potatoes. I've just heard from a guy in Brazil and one in Germany who are overwrapping my dearlittle $35 PCKit with a nylon "proprietary (HA!) cover" and getting dealers to sell it in the HUNDREDS!
You never chose to play that game. neither have I.
Over a hundred guys have thanked me for finally being the guy who put together a fine DIY PC Kit... just since Thanksgiving. I'm netting about $10/hr at this "commercialization". Ha!
So go ahead and take over this chore. But please desist from referring to this cable that you've loved all these years as being required to be replaced by a less "gawdy"
version that "takes it to the next level" because of your "intellectual property" needs. Your and my efforts are/were about avoiding the snake oil, no?
AC delivery is pretty simple stuff. Good copper, all-Teflon and shielding just about defines it, and you and I know that Belden covered it well. Now getting it code-legal with some easy to use, low-cost outer conduit is another story.
Maybe you should just make some zoomy CVH versions and go up against the big names at the dealer level?You've got a nice logo, website, and probably lots of connectons.
You can hide your milky magic in an opaque cover like others and offer a mid-priced cable that would outperform mamny others. Hell, just the stock Belden 83802 does that already. There ARE others out there simply using 83802 matrices hidden in Techflex, and charging $$$ for it.
I can understand your frustration, and decision to get into the game yourself.
I coinvented a widely used common lab tool called the Pipetman, and didn't make a nickel. But that doesn't mean that I need to reinvent a "next level" version and go up against my old self.
I wish you all the luck with your CVH ventures, but your defensiveness in casting aspersions on my bias in blind tests is a cheap shot, and not worthy of you. I simply would like to hear for myself what you've got. If it sounds better, and sits at a low price/ft, then it's an easy matter for you to grab some market by a fancy website and clever marketing. If most folks around here eventually can't perceive a difference, then the stock Belden 83802 will retain its place as the $2/ft giant-killer. But this you know already....
We're all grateful for your efforts, Chris. Please don't misinterpret mine. I'm not looking for a third career to cap off my work life by sqeezing for marketshare at the $2/ft or $35/PC level! It's just a nice service for fellow Audiogoners who want to build a PC or Power Box or two, and don't want to spend hundreds on raw materials bought in bulk, and/or just want a little hand-holding to get it done right.
We can easily coexist as allies in this small market where price-performance are so poorly correlated.
So please relax a little, stop feeling attacked or robbed, and good luck with your new biz. I'll probably refer MANY folks to you for spades and stuff in my remaining time here.
Keep well...you can let your guard down a little.
Ern
|
Not sure if my previous post got through, Audioengineer, but you have just described the "outside-ground" version of the Belden 83802 dedicated line we've been talking about.
Thanks for the idea about the plastic conduit. If this works then the argument's over. The advantage of this Belden is that it's shielded and all-Teflon dielectric.
I too think that 83802 (12/2, as you describe) with a countertwist outside ground might sound cleaner than 12/3 83803 correlated-twist internal ground. Great! |
Hi folks. MSN has eaten my internet service and email, so my 16 yr old finally let me use HER (guess who bought it?!) computer to get access....
I spent last night with a dear acoustician/ee/friend who immediately thought that Belden couldn't possibly approve use of ANY cable of theirs for in-wall use unless they had sought UL approval. The relatively small sales of their 83800 products is such that they simply saw no need to spend LOTS of bucks seeking UL approval. Maybe the recent dramatic upsurge in sales of this cable for 115v use will stimulate them to pony up the bucks....
Cheers. |
Phew.
Let me see if I can make sense of this....
Firstly, I chose to use Belden 83802 as a 110v delivery cable (dedicated line) well before seeing or hearing of anybody's use or designs! That was over 2 years ago. I thereafter used leftover cable to make PCs. I found Chris' site later on, seeing that he too was using 83802 as a power cable. Small world! So Sean, I certainly didn't need to give credit to ANYBODY but a Belden catalog where I found the largest Teflon-dielectric, shielded, 2-3 conductor cable I could find.
Re the use of Teflon, I had a career in laboratoty instrument manufacture and QA during the 70s and early 80s. The use of various fluorocarbons (including, but not limited to, FEP, PTFE, PVDF et al) because of their low dielectric absorption and chemical inertness. I was intimately involved in R&D of tooling and molding these exotic, expensive plastics. I'm a co-inventor of a common lab tool called the "pipetman". Some of you may have heard of it. "Choosing" a relatively-available FEP dielectric is a no-brainer for me. The choice to use it goes back to the early 70s.
Larry, please! I'm not responsible for ANY uncredited copycating or plagiarism. I have MANY times told enquirers
that the materials in my PCKit can be used to make Chris' published "flavors", if asked specifically, and DO credit him with making public this application. But application it is...not a design. Choosing to use a readily available product for another application doesn't constitute protectable property, or at least it shouldn't. I don't expect to have to thank someone if I too decide to use clothesline to hand a swing!
I really don't understand all the noise around this. Anyone can pick from hundreds of existing cables from several manufacturers and use them for a proscribed, or novel use. Do understand that I am grateful to Bob C and Chris for their suggestion to audiophiles to DIY; I only proide an assembly of parts that allows them to do so. At these VERY low prices it helps to keep our hobby sane.
I also sell a power "box" consisting of a metal box with duplexes and a PC. Is someone about to come out of the woods and claim that was their idea too? I don't mean to belabor this. If the majority of readers feel that I've stepped on Chris' toes, then indeed I'm sorry...it wasn't my intent. I just am getting sick and tired of seeing and hearing about rampant profiteering in this aspect of music-reproduction, and wanted to help others. Chris has told folks how to fish. I'm providing them with VERY inexpensive
fishing gear so they can. I would think the focus here should shift to those who make HUNDREDS of dollars selling each example of asimilar "design", not $10!
Eagle, yes I've heard you. We're all using this cable for 110v use. It's designed for 24v use, as you've informed us.
It's rated to what, 300v and 200C? So 115v use with high rex audio equipment is a novel use. Belden didn't anticipate it, and never provided a tough enough outer jacket to meet in-wall residential use. I think I have this I'm NOT aware that the wire itself is not usable for in-wall 115v use. The problem is a mechanical abrasion one, not an electrical one, I surmise.
I can understand where a Belden rep told you it's not made for 115 residential use. They have to protect themselves from am after-market recommendation that they never sought approval for, etc.
I think it's VERY important to know whether it's technically acceptable to use this stuff inside a protective conduit. When I first discovered it I assumed that it's use as a "plenum" cable without conduit reflected a minimum outer jacket protective performance, not just a high temp rating. I also assumed that such use could involve all voltages approaching its recommendation. Seems yo make sense. What I didn't know is what I suspect is true: that the outer thin Teflon jacket isn't tough enough for unrestricted in-wall residential (ab)use.
My daughter needs the computer. Keep well, and again ,sorry if I've stepped on toes. As I get on in years and contemplate near-retirement work activity I would like to focus more on activity that "gives something back". I think that working part-time for about $10/hr helping like-minded folks enjoy their hobby affordably rather than get taken advantage of by $$$ snake-oil profiteers could be a small part of it. Didn't mean to ruffle feathers. Folks are grateful for my help, as I'm sure they are to Chris, Bob, Albert, Sean, et al.
Good Night.
Ern
PS Chris, please feel to give me a call. 781 483-3922 |
Eagle, it certainly helps to know that. I have only visited AA three or four times, as I don't know how to navigate it, wheras I've been an avid member here for 2+ years. Had no idea who Chris or his interest was about until I had already "discovered" 83802 in a belden catalog. Parallel developments in parallel venues. Got it. Thanks. |
