I do not think the electrical codes in any state allow the use of stranded conductors in the wall from the panel to the receptacles. You should ask your electrician about residential codes before buying wire.
Dedicated power lines-getting started
Any advice please on the right questions to ask my local electrical contractor re: dedicated power lines.
I'm very interested in getting this done but I'm obviously"electrically challenged" when it comes to this stuff.
Also any feedback on estimated cost, time involved, material etc. would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
I'm very interested in getting this done but I'm obviously"electrically challenged" when it comes to this stuff.
Also any feedback on estimated cost, time involved, material etc. would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Showing 8 responses by eagle
Subaruguru, The Belden 83802 is a FPLP rated cable, power-limited fire alarm plenum cable. FPLP cables are listed in NEC 760, National Electric Code: "Conductor and cables for power-limited fire alarm circuits shall be listed for the purpose and meet the following requirements: A. Conductors are solid or stranded copper. B. Conductors in a multiconductor cable shall not be smaller than 26 AWG. Single conductors shall not be smaller than 18 AWG. C. The voltage rating shall not be marked on the cable. Voltage ratings marked on the cables may be misinterpreted to suggest that they can be used for Class 1, electric light and power applications. ..." That seems to infer the Belden 83803/2 is NOT approved for use in normal household AC circuits. You should check with the local electrical inspector if the NEC is adopted in your area before going any further with this and advise others to do the same. Romex NM, the typical wire used in AC circuits, is not approved in plenums because the jacket will melt creating toxic gases when the heat from a fire moves through the ducts. The teflon insulation and jacket on the plenum cable is more resistant to the heat. Romex NM has a max voltage rating of 600v and 83803 is rated at 300v. JPS Labs makes in-wall wire that is 600v rated like Romex NM. It is very expensive at $18/ft., but doesn't compromise the safety and is designed for what you want to do. Power AC In-Wall cable |
From NEC Article 760: "... The voltage rating shall not be marked on the cable. Voltage ratings marked on the cables may be misinterpreted to suggest that they can be used for Class 1, electric light and power applications. ..." Did you really read it? Look at a length of NM wire, it has 600v printed on the jacket. Art. 760 says printing 300v on the jacket is prohibited because it could lead to a misinterpretation of the intended use which does not include what you are proposing to use it for, power applications. I have a definitive answer from someone who actually knows the National Electric Code and where to look in the NEC, chapter and verse. I would be glad to forward the information to anyone interested. |
Belden tech support replied to my email and said they recommend their FPLP cable (83802, 83803, etc.) not be used for 110v power supply, from panel to receptacle. They said it is for "Control and Instrumentation" cables for Fire Alarm and Tray applications and are not designed for 110v applications. The assistant state electrical inspector and regional offices both said an emphatic "NO" when I asked if FPLP can be used in this manner. I have now contacted three electricians, the regional and state electrical inpectors offices, and Belden tech support. They all give the same answer. I had hoped 83803, at least, could be approved but unless it was overlooked by the local inspector it would not be, not in my state. I was told I'd have to get it all removed at whatever phase of construction it was discovered. That could prove to be a very costly mistake. |
Has anyone else asked Belden tech support if 83802 or 03 is recommended for 110v power circuits? (besides me) It doesn't make much sense that putting a cable in a conduit when it is specifically designed to not need a conduit in the proper application would somehow make it suitable for a use for which it was not designed. Although I did not specifically ask Belden tech support about a conduit, they said their FPLP, Fire, Power Limited, Plenum (83802, etc.) is not designed for 110v power supply. They are to be used for "Control and Instrumentation" of fire alarms and tray applications. Common commercial fire alarm systems have a main power transformer to which the FPLP cables are attached to carry 24v DC throughout a building. They are approved to be run through a plenum for the fire sensors and the teflon jacket is designed to withstand more heat in a fire and not give off the levels of toxic gas like other wire jacket materials. The system can be tied to a battery back-up with the DC voltage. Since the braided shield on the 83802 is inadequate for a safety ground, it makes sense to run a separate ground wire in a conduit. That does not mean the conduit will allow the use of 83802. Ask Belden tech support, if they say OK I won't continue to challenge what my research indicates is reckless advice for house wiring. Then all you have to do is convince the electrical inspector to go along with it. Good luck! |
This flap has gotten me curious so I looked into it. I noticed long ago at the bottom of the Venhaus DIY sitethe disclaimer: Legal Stuff: All content on this site is property of Christopher J. VenHaus copyright 1999-2002, all rights reserved. All images are copyright protected and may not be distributed in any manner without written permission. I do not endorse, and expressly forbid attempts to "commercialize" any of my cable designs for profit, without permission. Now I see Subaruguru's post from 11-14-02 saying he's been making cords using the "VH design" for a couple of years and routinely selling them (for a profit). While I think it's a useful service to combine the excellent design with a one source shopping for all the materials needed to make the cords, was permission ever asked of the designer? I think we need to cut through the smoke screen, stop the emotional outbursts, and give credit where credit is due. |
Subaruguru, It's baffling why you "have no idea what Belden says about 110v use" (of their 83802, etc.). This must be at least the fourth time I have referenced the reply from Belden tech support in this forum. They say: "These cables are not designed for use as 110 Volt Power Supply cables. They are listed as "Control and Instrumentation" cables for Fire Alarm and Tray applications." That means they do not recommend it in-wall from the electrical panel to wall receptacle in residential 110v service. It's unlikely they approve it for cords either, but outside the wall is not the issue. How many audio power cords are UL approved? I do not think the use of a conduit would change their recommendation for in-wall use of 83802, but rather than guessing about it you should email Belden tech support and ask them yourself. It makes no difference to me other than giving accurate advice to the forum readers. The method of running a ground wire is irrelevant if the cable is not approved in the first place. |
Xblue, I agree the facts are very simple here. The vast majority of the interest in Belden 83802 for powercords has been generated on the Audio Asylum by ChrisVH and talk of his designs for approaching two years. That's where I heard about them first also. That is the prime reason there is this high level of interest in the Belden wire and, subsequently, the kits. I don't believe the magic of 83802 is this smoke and mirror show. |