Thanks, still hoping someone will chime in who has heard both in credible "A/B" fashion. But congrats on your Rossini. I have to say, I have heard the Vivaldi (all things equal) with and without a preamp. While it's true that a 32-bit attenuator should bridge the gap between digital and analog volume control, the Vivaldi with high quality preamp bettered direct-to-amp by a sizable margin. Not even close! That said, the preamp in this case cost more than the Rossini! But whatever works. Enjoy, you have a great product. D
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Thanks for these latest posts. I'm queued up for the upgrade program, ref 1 to 2, but it may take a while. Great to hear the change is substantial. I too am scratching my head over your experience with vs without preamp. It raises the question of whether you have a cabling issue? I also run the same Ayre products and with ref1, using the KX-R 20 sounds vastly superior, well beyond issues of attenuation. Enjoy! |
Sounds great! As always, every room, system and ear is different. I will certainly A/B with and without the KX-R twenty again after my Berkeley update. I am #79 in the queue and they have temporarily suspended the conversion process until they finish the MQA upgrade. There is a groundswell of glow over MQA but I haven't heard samples from a fully compatible system so I don't have an opinion. But kudos to Berkeley for having a pathway to improvement for existing owners, even though they always (should be in caps) take longer than their well-intentioned estimates. Happy listening!
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Sounds good! I too have worked with Galen Carol, who is quite knowledgeable about Shunyata products- you have a good resource at hand! I am using a Zitron Sigma HC with my Triton- I'm not looking back or forward at this time, it's hear to stay (sorry, bad pun). I have read the Denali reviews, surely great products. BTW, I used a Power Wedge isolation trans.-type processor from about 1992 to about two years ago. The physics involved in these products defies both my knowledge and interest, but in my system and on my power grid, I can only regret waiting so long to let it go and move on. Isolation transformers are great for protection, however. I have used them in other applications. You have some fun toys!
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While awaiting Imgoodwithtools' answer, i will chime in by saying you've introduced many variables, focusing a systemic comparison on one component. That said, as a ref sac 1 user, the impact of the Shunyata Hydra Triton v3 (and previously v2) is HUGE in my room- Berkeley/ Nagra/ Rockport/ Transparent. I previously owned the complete Nordost QRT system, but the Shunyata just blows it away. How much of that is an effect on the sac, I couldn't say. Quieter, more transparent allowing fine detail to emerge were primary effects. Slightly greater sense of weight at the bottom noted as well. |
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And to ptss,
I compared AC cord effects between my Aurender source and Berkeley Ref Dac 1. Going up the price/ quality continuum, I found that the Aurender was more responsive to cord changes than the Berkeley. For what it's worth! Boy are we off topic!
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The D'Ag will be fun to compare with Nagra. I've owned both; though I owned a D'Ag Integrated, I've heard the separates. It's hard to say one is better than the other, but they are different. Since you're playing with top-end gear and since our systems have a lot in common, let me just tell you that the best amps I've heard are from Vitus, which is now supported in the US. Best amps and preamps- Vitus and Koda. I haven't heard the venerated Gryphon products, which as a Rockport lover (I've owned Wilson- outstanding but not my preferred flavor) may represent the best. Gryphon is not supported in the US. Just an opinion. That's all any of these posts are worth. |
My pleasure, happy listening! |
oops, I meant the Vivaldi took it several flights up! |
Thanks khrys,
Heresy indeed! Another vote against the preamp. I will have to revisit this. I just ordered two pairs of Transparent Audio Ref. interconnects and a pair of Ref. speaker cables, which arrive tomorrow. I will break them in and listen both ways.
Perhaps I will speak with Maier- thanks for the reference. The Vivaldi is a transcendent piece! Just to refocus, I visited Music Lovers in San Francisco, which also sells both Berkeley and dCS, where I heard a well controlled comparison of three dacs- Berkeley Ref 1, Rossini and Vivaldi, no upsampler or clock with the dCS units. All were fabulous, but to my ear, the Rossini bettered the Berk. by enough to justify the price gap; the Rossini took it several flights up, and I gather the other "stack" accessories just keep sweetening it up. I was leaning toward letting the Berk go for Rossini when I learned of the upgrade option from Berk 1 to Berk 2, at a nominal cost. So it seems I owe to myself to learn whether Berk has narrowed the gap on Rossini before spilling more money on this obsessive hobby.
Again, thanks for your interesting post. Music Lovers is now breaking in their Berk Ref 2, so perhaps I will be able to answer my own question in a few weeks?
Best to all, D
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Allen, thanks for weighing in. And I’m sorry to abandon my own post but the question I raised has become somewhat irrelevant to me personally. Berkeley’s ongoing delays- now both the paused update process and the late MQA software- are the final straw. I believe they are committed to quality and well intentioned in every realm, but their time estimates are a joke. So I’ll be moving on. The question now is Rossini vs. Linn and I’ll be able to do a side-by-side comparison with Definitive Audio in Seattle. Which ever sounds better to my ear is going home with me. I will likely use NAS/ Ethernet in lieu of my current Aurender server. So in effect, screw Berkeley- thanks for wasting my time yet again! I must disagree with the notion that the Rossini dac betters the Vivaldi when both are used sans clock, upsampler. I found the Vivaldi (2.0) superior by a huge margin. I agree with you however that the gap is narrow between Vivaldi (1.0) and Rossini. My candid thoughts! Add a few bucks and it’ll get you a cup of java. |
Hi Bobvin,
i haven't been up Seattle for that audition yet but I am intent on doing it. If you beat me to it, please report back. Thanks
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Well I may as well re-enter this old post of mine to see if there is any life left in it, and to close by reporting my decision- i bought a Vivaldi DAC. I never got to hear any of the dCS products compared to the Berkeley Ref. Series 2. For that matter, i never heard the Series 2 at all. Nor did I hear the Linn product. In case you are not aware, Berkeley has not resumed its upgrade process for original Series 1 owners, nor will they discuss the future of the process. All of this straight from the horses (bite tongue) mouth- Michael Ritter. Final straw! Now I’m left to accept a pittance for the used Berk. But aside from whining, I REALLY like MQA, which rules out Linn. And i really don’t want to be DAC shopping any time soon. And the Vivaldi really does deliver a bit of magic. Now I have to see how long I can go without buying the clock? Thanks everyone. |
Thanks imgoodwithtools and amg56. AMG56, I'm going with the Network Bridge as well, building a Roon Server around that (maybe Nucleus) to replace my Aurender server. Hopefully a Clock when the piggy bank refills. But I could live very happily with what you've assembled, and probably with a Berk. Series 2 as well.
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Dear info2rdw,
You have found yourself in a common quandary, I can relate. I have not tried Vivaldi with vs. without preamp, but I have done that experiment many times in the past with other gear and always preferred having a pre in the chain. Opinions on this run the gamut, of course . I am using Ayre Twenty Series gear (not my very favorite but I had a nice opportunity) which is pretty neutral in terms of timbral coloration. With the Berkeley Ref DAC, removing the preamp was slightly more detailed but somehow lacked the full weight and body I heard with pre. As value goes, the preamp gives the least bang for buck of everything on the rack, but now that I have it, it’s going nowhere. Imgoodwithtools, who posted in this thread, drew the opposite conclusion, using the same DAC and amps that I was running! So what gives? I have not heard the Soulution products but I gather they are pretty special and you might miss it if it goes. BTW, I looked at your related posts and I certainly agree with folkfreak, cables and cords will make a bigger difference than pre vs. no pre.
I have a dCS Network Bridge and two Transparent XL digital cables arriving tomorrow and I’m looking forward to hearing the Vivaldi for the first time with proper server implementation. I am also switching from Aurender to Roon, using a Nucleus. I will probably add the clock in a year or so, when the piggybank gets bloated again. Once I’m broken in, I would be happy to repeat the experiment for you, but I’m not sure that would be worth any more than my opinion about anything else. I also noted the sources you are considering. To my ear Roon off a noisy laptop sounds better than the Aurender N10. Perhaps the W20 w/ Vivaldi and master clock would be different?
I have heard a Vivaldi vs. Rossini shootout (DAC only) and it was no contest. Since you (like me and many others) seem to have a generous budget but not an unlimited one, perhaps you might consider a Vivaldi DAC now and Transport later? I don’t have any SACDs but I am curious to know what the pending Rossini transport will offer. If that device is compatible with Vivaldi, and deemed worthy, that might be an option for both of us.
Rambling aside, I suppose if I were to just answer your question, I would much prefer to have a Vivaldi without my preamp than Rossini with? Good luck! David
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That's quite a change, good for you! I may eventually reintroduce tubes. I've become a fan of Nagra products, for one. Galen Carol has been helpful to me as well and it's hard to disagree with his belief that a preamp imposes a signature of its own; you either like what it does or you don't. I don't care about accuracy per se, I just want to be enchanted. |
Thanks mribob, will look into eMats. Otherwise we have very similar configurations. Mine sounds like crap right now, so I have to remind myself that break-in is still happening while I also double check my dCS settings. So it is reassuring the read that yours is performing well.
Shadi has just gotten too busy. Good for him, of course, but he was going to send my a Nucleus for home trial and never did! I think he's well intentioned but I moved on.. Though tubes will probably find their way back into my system, I REALLY want to stop thinking about gear, for a good long while. But I am looking forward to the MQA update for the Vivaldi DAC. Take Care! |
