Sorry, yes inputs! I'm getting spun around here!
Thanks for reply All, yes, I will ask.
Thanks for reply All, yes, I will ask.
Dazed & Confused
Listening to mostly jazz, solo instruments and vocals I find my Martin Logan Spire hybrids to sound awesome, but recently I was listening to some both "Busy" 90’s rock and classical (lots of instruments playing loudly together) and I find the music starts to sound garbled and annoying (to bright), so much so, I turn it off.
I was wondering if you all might have some suggestions on some speakers that would be a little more forgiving with busy/loud music that I could possibly switch over to when listening to different types of music. That is unless I can find speakers that can handle all styles of music, then I would consider taking the hit ($$$) on selling the Spires.
Without getting into room size and dynamics, lets just call it a standard room, I was also looking for something more efficient. The Spires need a huge amount of power (and volume) to sound good. Looking more for something I can listen to loud but also still enjoy the music at a much lower volume if that’s at all possible. Neutral and not to bright.
Living in the sticks, I can’t just jump in the car to go demo speakers. Only once, in the past, did I purchase a set of speakers online and unheard, going solely on the sales person’s recommendations. I learned the hard way to never do that again!
Equipment now: Coda CSiB integrated amp with W4S 2v2 SE Dac running Roon Nucleus.
I also wanted to mention that the Spires have phenomenal base, so much so I sold the 2 subs I was originally using with them. Floor standers and bookshelfs have come along way in SQ these days, but if I need to purchase another set of subs the budget is starting to dwindle.
No vinyl or CD’s, just Tidal.
$3,000 - $5000 budget, new or newer demos.
Thanks for any suggestions or advice you may have to offer!
Paul
I was wondering if you all might have some suggestions on some speakers that would be a little more forgiving with busy/loud music that I could possibly switch over to when listening to different types of music. That is unless I can find speakers that can handle all styles of music, then I would consider taking the hit ($$$) on selling the Spires.
Without getting into room size and dynamics, lets just call it a standard room, I was also looking for something more efficient. The Spires need a huge amount of power (and volume) to sound good. Looking more for something I can listen to loud but also still enjoy the music at a much lower volume if that’s at all possible. Neutral and not to bright.
Living in the sticks, I can’t just jump in the car to go demo speakers. Only once, in the past, did I purchase a set of speakers online and unheard, going solely on the sales person’s recommendations. I learned the hard way to never do that again!
Equipment now: Coda CSiB integrated amp with W4S 2v2 SE Dac running Roon Nucleus.
I also wanted to mention that the Spires have phenomenal base, so much so I sold the 2 subs I was originally using with them. Floor standers and bookshelfs have come along way in SQ these days, but if I need to purchase another set of subs the budget is starting to dwindle.
No vinyl or CD’s, just Tidal.
$3,000 - $5000 budget, new or newer demos.
Thanks for any suggestions or advice you may have to offer!
Paul
Showing 46 responses by high-amp
These ML's were originally purchase for another home and sounded just fine. That home was remodeled around the speakers. That remodel was all about hard surfaces, which unlike most speakers the ML's are very adaptable too and sounded very good (yes, they were further apart) The location of the Spires in the present home is far from perfect but, for now, it is what it is. I wasn't really looking to make them sound better (maybe in the next house?) I was thinking to augment them with something that would sound better in this particular situation. From what I have read not all speakers do all things. ML's are great for clarity in the mids and are unforgiving (regardless of placement) with poor quality recordings (as tuberisit previously mentioned). Looking for either something to get me by (and sounds good with R&R)with a little more efficiency so as not to play them so loud. Or something to completely replace the ML's that will satisfy all the requirements. Something more unforgiven to room placement at this residence and any future digs. & BTW, the chairs in the photo are for watching TV. When I want to listen to music I have my Ikea Poang chair to plop down in the middle of the vise. Thanks for your comments! |
Quick update. Move the Spires to 7' on center. Played YES, Close to the Edge first track and when the vocals come in at the 4 minute mark, ouch. Then when the organs starts up at 13.03 I gotta turn it off (or at lease way down). Just shrills. On to Led Zepplin House of the Holy - 2nd track The Rain Song sounds absolutely beautiful until the 5 minute mark, more shrill (although not as bad as YES). Track 7 Quarter sounds great, the song itself is just not to "Busy". Not sure about the recording quality, listening to Tidal 96 kHz 24 bit. Maybe it's just my ears... |
All great input, much thanks you all. I purchased electrostatics without doing enough research and was pushed hard by a sales person at the time. With the same music (played on a tube amp), the ML's sounded better (with the same song, can't remember what it was) compared to Vienna Acoustic Baby Grands and Focal 1028's, although the ML's were also 2 1/2 times, so they must be better, right? I would still like to venture into some smaller conventional speakers to place behind on either side of the Spires, just to play with. Again, difficult to audition equipment in my area, but from reading multitudes of threads here some contenders might be Klipsch Forte III (everyone says they are good for rock). Spendor 7, Kef R700, Zu Audio Omens, there are multitude of others. And yes ,I know it's only my ears that can decide, but even if I drove to the city (Seattle being the closest) many of the speakers that are discussed on Audiogon don't seem to be available in the area. I did like Dan's suggestion of Tannoys. How did you "Build" a manufacture's speaker? I'm a hands-on guy, sounds like a challenge. |
Again thanks to all for your answers to my query. I will check or the Sonus Faber Sonetto 8's thanks mijostyn Interesting observation steakster (like mine medium rare) I'm hopping the "Room" is short term, but I think it's time to change to conventional speakers, more forgiving (I think?) Thank you Eric_S for even chiming in, I'm honored. At this point, I just don't want to spend a bunch of time and money on room acoustics if I'm moving. Most likely, where ever I'm going, the room will be very different again. Hey Al, (or should I say "Sherlock?) you really have an eye for detail 1. I have balanced connections between my DAC & amp. 2. The W4S DAC volume is set to maximum, which is 65. 3. Long story short, after a little factory rework, the amp is rated at V 2.5 300/600 W And Jim, I'm just as curoius as you! I also wanted to mention I did purchase a USB mic and downloaded the REW room correction software and I'm afraid this was way over my head. Just a laymen here not an electrical (or sound) engineer, so I returned the mic and deleted the soft ware. Trying to stick with the KISS theory as much as I can... |
Thank you Al, you have really dug deep into this. Thank you to everyone else as well. I don't have time today, but tomorrow I will play with the DAC volume as suggested. You have also sparked some other trouble shooting ideas for me. Some that will take me a while to figure out as I will have to purchase a few CD's first. I will report back on my findings. Any further speaker recommendations are greatly appreciated as well regardless. I will eventually downsizing my system with a pending residential move next year at which point the ML's will to large for my intentions. |
Point well taken on the recording gents. Anything you can recommend that is that's as an "Religious Experience" (luv it)/ busy that would be good to put a system to the test? Love Emerson, Lake & Palmer as well, but I think all their recordings may not be so great either Just a side note on YES, got me to thinking. They were the first real concert I saw when I was 15 years old (first was Paul Revere & the raiders in more of a theater like setting). Triple bill: The Eagles, Edgar Winter featuring Rick Derringer both opening acts for YES. Cost for ticket, are you ready for this...$4! After the supercharged, high energy show of watching EW/RD who followed the Eagles, everyone was ready to sleep when YES finally played, oh so mellow. Then there was ELP with the quadraphonic set up in a large stadium type venue...Ah, the good old days. |
Boy, you are all great! Getting a little technical in some aspects ("never been a fan of amplifiers with so many output devices per channel"), but love all great the feedback. Been reading AF for years with never really participating, glad now that I finally have! Hey ieales, OK, you talked me into, now a new amp (suggestions for something without so many output devices), but I do have to figure this speaker thing out first! Especially if I'm moving on from the ML's. At one time I had some decent XLO speaker cables (along with some other good power cables and IC's) but had a few personal issues arise so the first thing to go was the "Jewelry" Right now just running Blue Jeans Belden 5000. Oh so temping - https://salon1audio.com/product/sonus-faber-sonetto-viii-new/ and my wife would go out of her mind being offered in white. Already designing our new digs, wherever that may be? It'll be all-white. I once purchased a pair of speaker without hearing them, promised I would never do it again! |
Eloquently spoke ieales, my apologies for the "jewelry" slang, wrong choice of words. I would love to get into tubes, I always feared the maintenance aspect. Most of my life has been work, eat and sleep (with little of the later). Just wanted the reliability of SS when I did have a chance to listen to some music. Life will eventually taper down with retirement in the not to distant future but the cash flow follow the same path. With a change of equipment in mind this may possibly be the last kick at the cat and I truly want to get it right. I don't want to spend my golden years in "Regret" That said, I'm assuming if I go with tubes (Prima Luna looks interesting and there is a dealer not to far away). I may want to look at different speakers than previously discussed here. For example, Zu Audio speakers seem to be rated to match well. With this in mind, I would look again to the wealth of knowledge from you all here who contribute to this forum. Could you share with me your set up or are we getting to far off track and I should start a new thread? I will be working on my system tomorrow afternoon with all the great suggestions that have been given here and report back as soon as possible! |
Hi all. This was the manufactures response to your suggestion Al: “The DAC has hot outputs that may be too much for your integrated. I would suggest a level of 55 and if that is still too much then go RCA at that level.” I tried RCA and what I got was a lower volume and a little less detail (lackluster sound ) than with balanced connections. Definitely a little brighter, but in a nice sort of way. I turned the volume down to 55 (from 65) as the manufacturer suggested and have left it at that for now. Any comments? Regarding room treatment /speaker placement, I have the speakers at 7’ foot centers which made a positive difference compared to 5’ centers. I may go more, but my speaker cables aren’t long enough. Because I have my equipment off to one side, my cable is already 20” in length, which is pretty long in my opinion. I have no problem going longer, what do you all think? If I do, I’d be happy to upgrade the Belden 5000 and am open to suggestion please, (ieales?) Erik, mijostvn1, tuberis: I recently purchased some custom cut acoustic panels to place behind the speakers, which are 2 1/2’ from the back wall (ML suggests 2 – 3’) but with increasing the distance between them the panels no longer fit due to the suspended shelving on the back wall. This house, nor the last, never had a dedicated music room. Being smaller homes and with a family, my listening rooms had to be multi-functional. I know this room is far from being acoustically perfect but this one reason I purchased Martin Logans. From the research done I found them advertised to the most forgiving speaker as far as being affected by hard surfaces and room dimensions. As long as they are not to close to the back wall and now knowing not to close together, they sound pretty good. Yes, there is definitely a tight sweet spot. I use the ML flashlight method mostly and try to compromise that 1/3 panel reflection between the chair I listen to on the same level of the speakers (which is a bit to close) and the barstool up the kitchen, the one on the left in the photo, which is pretty close to the center. I think the biggest problem has been the issue of poor recordings, a lot of fantastic advice has been given and my system sounds better because of it but with garbage in and getting garbage out really seems to be the moral of the story here! By the way northbeach/mijostyn1, Salon 1 offered up the SF Sonetto’s at $4,500 for the pair, oh so tempting! Using restraint coupled with a pending move in the near future I may just wait to see where I’m going before changing out any gear. The Dynaudio Contour 6.0 piques my interest bluemartini as does the Walsh Ohm f917025. So many options with nowhere to test drive any of them. ieales, would you care to share with me your system? As in what tube equipment, speakers and cables you run? Lastly, would anyone here recommend the Egglestonworks Emma Evo speaker, they are priced around $5,500 a pair. There is a post noted earlier this year but most comments relate to their upper, more costly lines, not their Emmas. |
Hey jrwaudio, My wife and I originally demoed the Spires at our local dealer with a PrimaLuna integrated amp rated at 34wpc which seemed to power the ML’s just fine and sounded sweet. Tubes sounded better than the SS amp I have now, I just wanted the reliably of SS at the time. My wife was influential in the decision to purchase the Spires, we actually went 2 ½ times over our budget in purchasing them. We really thought they sounded unbelievable compare to others, 2 ½ times so, and still do. Being the first of ML’s CLX I think t ML really went all out with the Spires as far as to build quality and sound reproduction. After reading your comments I played AC/DC Back in Black and it sounded great, the Spires can rock just as well as they play jazz. B7B is probably a much better recording than that of the YES, Close to the Edge CD as per my original posted complaint here. I am changing residences next year, where ever I go I'm sure my listening room will be much smaller, so still on the lookout for something more efficient and definitely a bit smaller with possibly consideration of going with tubes. I am very happy with my Spires and think they sound amazing regardless of the room they are in now. I know they will be difficult to replace with my budget in mind, so always open to members' suggestions here! |
Al, W4S never got back to me with more than their original response being:
“The DAC has hot outputs that may be too much for your integrated. I would suggest a level of 55 and if that is still too much then go RCA at that level.”So I'm guessing if there were any further concerns they would have responded further. The best sound for me is with the DAC at full volume, running the balance cables. |
Still with me Al? W4S finally got back to me with this response: " So a 1k load is quite ridiculous really, not sure why they would release something like that but surely don't drive that single-ended. Running balanced will drive it and whatever degradation would be common to both phases so likely to cancel out. I can test a DAC to see how it handles it if you wish but I suspect it would be fine". I'm afraid all this technical lingo is above me, could I please trouble you to comment on this response? Is the fact they "suspect it would be fine" acceptable in your mind? |
Again, this is a little over my head Al, so maybe some layman's advice, please. With a speaker change pending, I may consider doing the same with the amp. I may then send the amp in for a tune-up beforehand. Is there something I could ask Doug Dale at Coda to do to limit the output voltage of the balanced outputs. Knowing what you have explained to me so far, yes, I can just turn down the volume on the DAC, but what of any prospective purchasers? I wouldn't want to have to go to the trouble of having to explain all this, especially when I don't understand it all that well myself. Why do you think this voltage is so high here? What would be the intended equipment to run balanced at this voltage? |
Hey jrwaudio, I’m certainly open for you to share your thoughts on speakers that you have considered in the past. What I find a little odd is that if you are aiming towards ML’s, are the speaker you have tried in the past not living up to what you expect from ML’s, (which I already have)? My wife and I love our Spires, we will not give then up until we can find something better, which I think will be pretty difficult on our budget. I would actually purchase new unit first, before letting the Spires go just to ensure they sound equally as good. The focus for me being on something smaller and more efficient. With regards to the listening position. My existing room is only 12’ deep. With the speaker 2 1/2’ of the back wall and my chair, a pushed up against the step down into the sunken living area, my ears are around 9’ away from the speakers and it sounds pretty darn good to me. I find if you abide by ML’s flashlight method in setting up your listening position, this general rule works pretty well from any reasonable distance. I was running a pair of GoldenEar Forcefeild 4 subs and wound up selling them as I found the bass on the Spires perfect my listening experience. |
After a few hours of listening, the best listening experience, at least for me, seems to be running balance with the DAC (which by the way I love), at full volume. This produces the most lively soundstage for my ears. This set-up may make poor quality recordings sound worse, but if things are right, I really don't think it could sound any better. As long as I'm not hurting anything and W4S gives its blessing, I think I'll stick with the most common term used in these forums and Enjoy the Music" Thanks again to all for your detailed help and advice. |
Thanks, https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/most-influential-speakers Loved my AR9's back in the 70/80's |
notesaddict So are you saying you tilted the speakers forward by raising the back of them until the stat panel was perpendicular (90 degrees) to the floor? |
Thanks for sharing 2channel8 Looks like the 1200DC is no longer in production. They now offer the 690, 670 & the 620DC in the Ergo series. Looks like they may be difficult to test drive on this side of the pond? |
Are you still with me Al? I was planning on sending my amp in for a tune-up and I asked CODA about some of your original querries and this was their response: " 1k was a misprint in some manuals that keeps popping up like a zombie. I even found it on our website after we restored it from a hack. The input stage of the CSiB preamp can easily be over driven by a DAC with that output level. Best option would be lower the DAC output and use the volume control in the CSiB to increase SPL. FYI, the standard for balanced input before 'high end audio' got involved was 600 Ohms. The low impedance improved noise reduction. Any properly designed SS amp should not have a problem but that does not mean that some high end amps won't crap out. Again 10k not 1k" So a misprint, but it seems they still suggest to turn the volume down on the DAC and use the volume control on the amp. Didn't say with balanced or RCA though? |
Happy Holidays to you and yours as well! Thank you so much for responding. I really appreciate your sound (no pun intended) knowledgeable advice! What were your thoughts on converting the amp to the V1 specs? 150 Watts per channel Class AB into 8 Ohms, 300 Watts per channel Class AB into 4 Ohms, Class A ~18 Watts so as to get more of class A?This from my now V3 (400 Watts @ 8 ohms/800 Watts @ 4 ohms) Coda was saying they sell 10 times more V1's (150w) compared to their V3's (400w). I went from a 200W @8 ohm/ 400W @4 ohm McIntosh integrated that I had to run at 85+ out od 100 to get my Martin Logan Spires to sing whereas the CSiB sounded darn good at 65 out of 100 on the volume scale. I may change my speakers eventually to less power demanding units, but in the meantime, I still wish to enjoy my Spires and not sure if the V1 configuration will suffice? Paul |
Happy New Year Al, Sorry to bug ya again, but with altering my CSib to the V1 configuration (
150 Watts per channel Class AB into 8 Ohms, 300 Watts per channel Class AB into 4 Ohms, Class A ~18 Watts), do you think I could still comfortably power a pair of Magnepan .7's, 1.7's or even the 3.7's? https://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_7 https://www.magnepan.com/model_17 https://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_37 Thanks, Paul |
Sorry, so what I was trying to say, was from your System Page on Audiogon, it looks like your King Sound King v1 was your life long speaker but now you're already on your first set of Emerald Physic ( Tempo VI) speakers and going to upgrade again. That's a lot of indecisiveness, let me know when you're officially "Done" |
So I can tell I'm going to fail at this miserably as I was never any good at math. I purchased a USB mic thinking I was going to cure everything with the Room Correction Wizard and as soon as I opened the program, I was so overwhelmed I sent the mic back immediately! I'm still trying to figure the efficiency ratings and frequency ranges of speakers and how all that works. Really, I just want good sound in a system that is matched up correctly. Thank you for sharing the HT website, I will see if I can figure it out, but I may be back to ask you your professional opinion again! (can I hire you?) I will be keeping the CSib for some time now as it's in getting the current adjusted to the V1 configuration as well as a new set of caps as we speak (might as well get a full tune-up whilst in). I would like to follow up with some new speakers, probably something much more efficient, something I don't have to play so loud to enjoy. Thank you too maplegrovemusic. I have heard good things about EP's as well, Is there a particular model you recommend? I am thinking of starting a new thread about dilemma and see where that leads...Stay tuned. |
Hey MGM, so 30 pairs of speaker in the last few years. Sounds like, let alone the In the last few years I have been on a journey with equipment , Over 30 pairs of speakers . There has been one pair with me from the start , they are King Sound King v1 electrostats . They have and will be lifelong speakers . |
Great recommendation Chris, thank you. The other 2 units I was considering (and Revel was on my radar!) is the Salk Song 3 Ecore and the Legacy Signature SE's. One thing that both these audio companies tout is the fact that most dealers have a 50% mark up their products, hence getting more value with their offerings. Have you had any experience with either or? If anyone else cares to chime in... |