Damping Vibration - Friend or Foe?



Hi All,

I have been reading many discussions regarding the use of damping in and around audio components here on Audiogon. I thought that the following discussion from the FAQ page of my company’s website would add a little clarity. The example here involves a home theater system but the same principles hold true for an audio only system.

Question: Some people claim that adding damping to components to control vibration can sometimes make them sound less dynamic and somewhat lifeless. Why should this be so when damping reduces the problems of vibration and resonance?

Answer: I have also heard the same comments a number of times. Unfortunately, people mistakenly attribute these negative changes in performance solely to the addition of damping to a component. If we look at the entire evolution of an audio or video system we can gain a much more clear understanding of what is happening and why it is happening.

Let’s say that John, who is an audio and video enthusiast, decides to put together a really nice home theater system. He reads a number of magazines, visits websites devoted to these topics and assembles a system composed of many highly rated components. John sits down to enjoy a well produced action movie but a few minutes into the first scene realizes that he’s not hearing or seeing what’s been described in the magazines by the reviewers. The highs are bright and harsh, the midrange is forward and the bass is bloated and ill defined. The video picture is also disappointing – the images are not very sharp or detailed, it looks rather two dimensional and the color is only so-so. What’s going on? These are all really good and pretty expensive components!

John decides to try different interconnect and speaker cables to deal with the audio problems. After two or three weeks of trying a number of different brands he decides on Brand X between the converter and the surround processor (it had the smoothest highs) Brand Y between the processor and the amplifiers (it had the best midrange) and Brand Z to the subwoofer (it had much better bass). In addition, he spent a many hours trying different speaker positions. It also happened that the cable between the DVD player and the video projector John chose was from Brand X - it reduced many of the video problems he was seeing. He then had a technician come out and recalibrate the projector for this new cable. Now John is happier with the system, after all, he even switched the front amp for a different brand. But after a few weeks he is still noticing that the highs have sibilance during loud passages, are still kind of bright, and the midrange, although better than before, still honks a little and is not that distinct on complex dialog. Plus imaging is good but not great. The bass is better but he’s had to try the subwoofer in nine or ten different positions and, of course, the one that sounded best was right in the middle of the walkway!

John is bummed but starts thinking about acoustical treatment for his room and decides that adding some of that will surely make the system sound great. He borrows a bunch of different devices from a number of dealers and spends all day and night Saturday and Sunday trying all of the devices in different combinations and positions. By 11:59 P.M. on Sunday night he’s finally found the best compromise that takes care of many of the other audio problems, although some still remain.

All this work has left John exhausted but happy for a couple of months. He can now at least enjoy watching movies but increasingly is annoyed by the remaining audio and video problems. Over time he’s also noticed some new problems he hadn’t noticed before!

Well, now what? John does more reading. He’s read about vibration control before but now starts to think more seriously about it. He knows that Brand B’s products (high-mass and high-absorption damping devices) get great reviews and have won lots of awards so he decides to try them. He places a compliant decoupling platform on the shelf, a high-mass and high-absorption isolation platform on top of the compliant platform, the DVD player on top of the high-mass platform and a high-mass damping pod on top of the DVD player and the surround processor. Well just about all of the remaining audio and video problems are now gone – the highs are very smooth, the midrange is clear and the bass is much tighter, the video picture is far better – but somehow things sound constricted and lifeless. John likes the improvements but is not very sure that this is good thing overall.

What is really going on? As we’ve seen, John has taken a fairly convoluted road to reach the point of trying the damping products. Along the way he has made many choices of associated components, accessories and set-up to optimize the system. “Optimize“ has mostly meant reducing obvious and subtle problems and enhancing certain other aspects of performance. Unfortunately, much of this effort has been an attempt to reduce the negative audio and video artifacts of vibration contamination. The choice of cables, acoustic treatment devices, speaker position, etc. have all been made to ameliorate the SYMPTOMS, not the CAUSE of the problem – vibration! Once the cause of the problem is eliminated, the system shows itself for what it is – a system where the highs and mids have been pushed down in level and dynamic range because of acoustical treatment devices and associated components, where imaging has been manipulated by speaker position and acoustic treatment to compensate for random out-of-phase elements, where subwoofer position has been chosen as a compromise, where video calibration and associated components have been selected to compensate for vibration induced jitter and other artifacts in the video bitstream, etc., etc., etc. It is no wonder that John was under-whelmed when he added the damping devices!!

Also at issue is the fact that the designers of the components in the system have voiced their designs with vibration (most probably) present in their reference systems. They have compensated for the problems introduced by vibration and resonance by changing parts and topology to minimize the symptoms (not the cause) of that problem. It is quite possible that effectively eliminating vibration and resonance with damping is letting you REALLY hear how the component has been designed.

It is often the case that the choice of set-up, associated components, ancillary accessories, acoustic treatment, etc. has to be significantly and fundamentally reevaluated when adding devices that eliminate basic problems in a system – especially problems that are as pervasive and permeating as those brought about by unwanted vibration and resonance.

Best Regards,

Barry Kohan

Disclaimer: I am a manufacturer of vibration control products.
bright_star_audio

Showing 9 responses by stehno

Barry, Now you did it. You went and made Sean angree.

Do you know what Sean did to the last mfg'er that made him angree? Just ask the folks around here or at Legacy.

It was not pretty. {I shudder just thinking about it}.

Well, Barry, it's, um, been nice, um, chatting with you but I really, uh, must go now.

-IMO
Barry, I was hoping that you might comment on my previous post regarding the car and subwoofer analogy. I know it's not a great analogy, but I think there are some real world applications in there somewhere.

Thanks,
threadous _postous_interruptous Golly, Sean. Are you calling me out? I mean, I've seen you take far greater punches than my silly little comment last evening.

I guess that's why I find it somewhat strange that you have singled out my comment about Barry at Bright-Star making you angry and what you attempted to do to the last company who made you angry. But I really haven't had any desire to engage in a debate with you. Especially in such a formal manner as this, . . . in not one but two threads.

What about the guy who deemed you an 'Internet-bully'? Why don't you call that guy out? Obviously, his statement was much more hurtful than mine. Wasn't it? Or how about the others that have apparently called you names? I've not done such a thing. Yet just because I see things from a different perspective. I mean is this not the generation that is to celebrate diversity?

You know, this could be an A'gon first? What are the rules of engagement (no punches below the belt, no eye gouging, no wedgies, no scratching, etc.)? What is the ultimate purpose/goal (does the loser have to leave the planet, or just listen to the winner's system for a day, (the real question is which of those options is worse))?

I suppose it could be kinda' fun. Nevertheless, I shall respectfully decline your offer to engage in meaningful dialogue or to formalize a mock trial of sorts in these parts simply based on my rather silly comment last evening.

That is, unless of course you insist... Hey, wait a minute. Are you doing this just because I mentioned your owning Carver equipment in that Legacy thread you started last December? You know, the one where you showed utter disdain and contempt for Legacy the company and for Paul Bolin the Legacy speaker reviewer and for anybody who owned Legacy speakers? You know, the thread which had since been pulled?

Or is it because in that same thread you kept crying uncle when others were beating up on you and I told you to get back in there and fight and I'll let you know when you've had enough? Shoot! I've forgotten all about that. Why can't you?

Then again, I suppose if I were provoked... Well, I guess I'd have no choice but to defend myself at that point.

Even if this is just a hobby.

-IMO
Barry, thanks for the update and congratulations on the numerous awards and recognitions for your ingenuity and designs.

-IMO
Barry, I know we've touched on some of this before.

It would be wonderful if one's products addressed every aspect of a given issue. And perhaps this can be accomplished by some products in some industries. But I have my doubts that your products (or anybody else's in the audio industry) being capable of such things as you seem to be insinuating above.

Would you not agree that if your products were to properly address one type of vibration:

o say air-borne, then have you not just trapped the internally generated vibrations within?

o say floor-borne, then have you not just trapped all air-borne vibrations that continue to be captured by the components?

o say internally generated vibrations, then ..., well actually if you are making this claim for your products, I'm very curious how you think your products have accomplished this.

It is a fact that components in a music room WILL capture air-borne and floor-borne vibrations and they WILL generate their own internal vibrations. As far as I know it is physically impossible to completely protect a component from ALL vibration unless one were to remove the component far out and away from the room where the vibrations were occurring and/or the components were turned off.

It is also a fact that as one sits in their cushy(well-damped) listening chair feeling the vibrations from the music, one can bet dollars to doughnuts that their equipment is feeling pretty much the same vibrations regardless of whose vibration control system products are being used.

If you are claiming that your products have overcome this, then shouldn't I be able to use your products to also prevent my physical body from experiencing those same vibrations that are hammering my components? I would think this would be a relatively easy test.

I just don't see how anybody's vibration control system products can essentially be all things to all vibrations such as to kill them in their tracks BEFORE they contaminate the components like spraying bugs with a can of RAID.

-IMO
Labtec, thanks for clarifying. I did not confirm exactly what Barry stated and I certainly don't want to misquote or even misinterpret what somebody else says.

But I got the impression that Barry was addressing his products effects from a somewhat hypothetical and third person perspective.

If Barry is only saying that his products ATTEMPT to address all three, then it may still be fairly safe to assume that he has a certain level of confidence that he has done so properly and adequately.

Whether Barry has that confidence level or not really does not matter. For even if Barry claims that his products only attempt to address all three, I don't believe that I would have to change any of the questions I posed to him.

As for my example of sitting in a cushy chair. We're talking about 8 to 10 inches of foam atop of springs under my normally weighted buttocks. How much more isolation do I need? If I lift my feet off the floor I still receive what I perceive to be the near exact same level of air-borne vibrations contaminating my body. And it's my believe that it's those same vibrations to one degree or another that my components are also capturing. Again a simple test.

I don't see what's so hard to understand there. Since putting a sandbox under the chair is a bit impractical, why not put 2 or 3 cushions on top of one another and then sit cross-legged on those cushions. I haven't tried this yet, (perhaps I should) but I would venture a guess that I will still capture the near exact same air-borne vibrations. Now that would be a practical and easy test.

As for floor-borne vibrations, I personally don't even consider that much of an issue unless I had a much older home and a very, very bouncy flooring system.

-IMO
Flex, thanks for the clarification.

However, I am quite aware of all that you say. I remember about 15 years ago, a siesmologist saying with over 400,000 earthquakes registering around the world in that previous year, that the world was literally and constantly shaking and like never before. And supposedly each year it's getting worse.

But I still don't care about things like traffic, tremors, and such. And what you've described is something everybody faces. So what?

My speakers are sitting on Audio Points. My rack is also sitting on Audio Points. Oh, and my components are also sitting on Audio Points. Why? Because it is my intention to mechanically couple my speakers, components, and rack to the flooring system!

The generic term for this methodology is called coupling. BTW, can you guess what the other methodology is generically called? Decoupling! But again, I'm really not concerned with floor-borne vibrations no matter how loud or bass heavy the music is. What part of this do you not understand?

What have you done with your speakers? Are you gonna' suggest I put a sandbox under my house or kitty litter boxes under my speakers? I also live on a culde-sac and I am blocks away from the nearest thru-street.

No offense, but until now, I've not directed any statements toward you. So please feel free to change the channel if my responses to others bother you.

-IMO
Barry, I wholeheartedly agree that vibration handling, electrical, and room acoustics are, in and of themselves, all very critical areas that should be proactively addressed individually. As properly addressing these items can translate to a real improvement in one's musical experience.

However, in your post above, you made the following statement:

"Eliminating all vestiges of vibration
contamination will ensure that the fragile
frequency / amplitude / phase relationship
that is contained in the recording remains
undisturbed."

This is difficult for me to comprehend because it is my understanding that it is simply impossible for vibrations and resonance to not disturb the components, rack, and speakers unless these items were placed one or two rooms away from the listening room.

My own little home-grown analogy for lack of one's ability to eliminate vibration via dampening and/or isolation is the following:

"You're in your vehicle at a stoplight. Somebody three cars behind you pulls up with his subwoofer blasting. You feel the beat in your sternum and gut. You look in your rearview mirror to catch a glimpse of the guy 3 cars back and your rearview mirror is really vibrating."

But the question is, Why? If the other guy's car is sitting on rubber air-filled radial tires and yours is too, and you are sitting on a well-cushioned seats and your rubber-surround windows are rolled up, why are you not completed isolated from these vibrations? Why not your rearview mirror? Now imagine how much worse that guy's chest and rearview mirror are vibrating.

Should not these air-filled radial tires and the space distance between the vehicles be deemed an excellent means of dampening and isolating vibrations?

Using that analogy and it's real effects as an example, I would conclude that it is simply impossible to 'eliminate all vestiges of vibration contamination' as you put it.

That, and the results of my limited experiments, are why I believe it is best to expedite the transfer of these nasties away from the components, rack, and speakers via the coupling methodology.

That is in contrast to simply de-couple and hence trap those vibrations inside each component and thus potentially reeking havoc on the innards and subsequent sonics.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

-IMO
Barry, nice review on the Gilmores and I appreciate your being a firm believer in 'overkill'. Also, sorry for the unexpected side-bar earlier this week.

Regarding your previous responses to my post, I would agree with you regarding the air-borne vibrations exciting the car and windows, etc.

However, I don't think I could agree with you on the ground being exciting and the transferring of those vibrations coming thru the street up thru the tires' rigid sidewalls. To the best of my knowledge, not even jackhammers or even some smaller pile drivers are capable of that kind of earth-shaking impact.

I certainly agree with your other statement "merely decoupling a component from floor-borne vibrations will not completely eliminate vibrations, .... Battling vibration effectively can only be accomplished by combining the right materials with the correct methodologies."

Again I come back to the impossible and perhaps unwanted task of eliminating all vibrations which we know cannot be done. And that is why I believe it best to expedite the transfer of those vibrations rather than try to suppress them.

Also, I have difficulty believing that the ultimate goal of those adhering to the decoupling methodology is to remove all vibration.

In your opinion, what would happen to the sonics if 'all' vibration were removed?

Thanks for sharing. And I hope you'll understand when I say I hope not all of your threads are as exciting as this one. :)

BTW, I'm not sure if it's ever been stated. Exactly what products does Bright Star mfg'er?

-IMO