Damping fluid/grease for Mayware Unipivot?

Andy, I had a Mayware back in the late 70's and as I recall, the supplied fluid was rather thick stuff. Much thicker than olive oil. In fact, you had to give it time to actually level-out. Your best bet may be to use something thicker than the olive oil and then adjust the amount used by ear.
Woodrow

Many thanks Toddm this is very much the grease end rather than the olive oil end.

Johnnantais I thank you for trying to tell me what dynamics means to a turntable but I must admit to being little wiser. Although there is quite a lot in your answer with which I disagree I am not sure a debate will be fruitful if we do not subscribe to the same set of beliefs on which to base our arguments. However, I am sure we can both agree to enjoy the music however we may go about optimising the sound quality. Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions.

Thanks for the useful pointer Stefanl but it studies a turntables performance in a manner with which I am familiar. In the 70s discussing turntable performance in the press on this sort of basis was fairly common.

60,000 CST, IIRC

I hate the the way Audiogon titles posts ;)

... that's what my "Sonus" Formula IV specifies, IIRC - I don't have the manual handy; I used a little of the stuff for RC cars (got it at my local toy shop for, like, $5) - it's about the same viscosity as warm molasses, so thin oils like E/V olive oil would probably provide less damping (unless my physics are backwards, which is entirely posible)

Hi Adrian, boy this is really drifting off-topic. Of course adding more damping when mounted on a Lenco does not compromise the sound quality, no more than adding more damping because another cartridge - such as the super slamming Decca cartrdiges - needs more damping. It is done by ear to achieve a good result, trust your ears. If you add too much damping, this means so much it negatively affects the sound/performance. When you get it right, then it doesn't negatively affect the sound but only focuses it up to the optimal point. The Lenco is no different than any other 'table out there: there are grades and there are grades. Of course, different 'tables will have dynamics in different degrees, just as some will have more bass and others will have better highs. This is true also of cartridges: a more dynamic cartrdige will require more damping than a less-dynamic one. Read the reviews: why is a VPI TNT better than a VPI HW19 MKIV? For one thing dynamics. Why is a Clearaudio Master Reference better than most other belt-drives? Again among other things dynamics. This applies to amplifiers (some are more dynamic than opthers), cartridges (some are more dynamic than others), CD players (some are more dynamic than others)...why should record players be any different? Dynamics are affected by various things in different degrees - materials, suspension, design - but most of all by real-world speed stability, which in belt-drive turntables is achieved by mass/momentum and torque (this explains why more expensive turntables have HUGE platters, and often extra motors or flywheels attached). The Lenco, being an idler-wheel drive, has tremendous torque, and also great mass/momentum due to its flywheel-platter, and so tremendous dynamic swings, same as the Garrard 301s and 401, and other idler-wheel drives like the Rek-o-Kuts. This is why idler-wheel drives are sought-after by some, this is their defining characteristic. They have such tremendous dynamics because they do not suffer from stylus drag, that phenomenon whereby dramatic groove modulations in a record actually slow down the platter as they cause a braking action as the cartridge hangs on: idler-wheel drives steamroller over this, being too powerful to be thus affected. The result is audibly greater dynamics, slam and controlled bottomless powerful bass. Put a given unipivot tonearm/cartridge on an idler-wheel drive, and you'll find that the damping which resulted in optimal performance for that same tonearm/catrdige combo on a belt-drive is no longer sufficient, the cartridge is now out of control, and control of arm-cartridge resonances and stability is the whole reason for damping in the first place. Simple. Sticking to belt-drives: Say one turntable has decent bass, fast and nimble, but slightly light, like an AR-XA. You mount your Mayware on that and you will find that to preserve the bass and to tighten it a bit you need to apply three drops of silicone fluid. Now mount that same arm-cartridge combo on a turntable with much more powerful bass, like a Clearaudio Master Reference. Suddenly the bass is much deeper, conditions have changed. What was enough damping is suddenly not enough, as the bass below 40 Hz, which could not be heard on the AR, is now audible and woolly. Now you need to add more damping fluid until the bass is once again well-defined. Does this mean the Clearaudio is caca? Of course not! Damping is to tame excited energies. The more dynamic a turntable is (and the deeper the bass) the more those resonances and energies will be excited. Damping is applied by ear: the manufacturers cannot anticipate every single cartridge that will be mounted on their tonearms, nor can they anticipate every single turntable their arms will be mounted on, thus they cannot provide a "standard" amount of damping fluid, even if there were only one type. I would disagree with Stefan1 on one thing: while it's true that science cannot provide clear instructions on how much damping fluid to use, this is no bad thing and is no sorry compromise, as your ears will be receiving the sound-waves/music, and your ears are the best judge of when you've applied enough fluid. We'd all be better off if we trusted our ears instead of seeking hard and fast rules, and would find ourselves enjoing reproduced music much much more. So mount your tonearm, apply damping fluid in stages and listen, you'll know you went too far when the dynamics disappear and the bass and dynamics (liveliness) become too attenuated, at which point you remove some and find that sweet optimal spot for your particular turntable.

I think you should read this as I mentioned it's called "Audible effects of Mechanical resonances in turntables" by Poal Ladegaard it will give you a better understanding of well....turntable resonances.Here is the link http://www.vinylengine.com/manuals.shtml Everything in audio is a sorry compromise as someone once said.

I am still confused about dynamics. Dynamics is a good thing but the consequence of good dynamics is more structure borne sound in the tonearm. In order to dissipate this one needs to add more viscous damping. Is this correct?

I realize I am wandering a bit from the original topic but a couple of questions:

With the Lenco, by adding a lot more damping does this overdamp the arm/cartridge resonance and have a detrimental effect on both the bass response and the handling of warped or non-concentric records?

What is mechanically different about a turntable with good dynamics and one without? That is, what has changed for the better in the chain: housing - (suspension) - platter - record - cartridge - tonearm - (suspension) - housing

HI Andy, as Styefan points out there is the arm/cartrdige resonance point which varies according to the cartrdige used. Generally speaking, the lower the compliance of a given cartrdige the more damping you will need. By dynamics in record players i don't menaa noise at all, but out and out dynamics, slam, speed. You'll find as I did, if you change record players to something with more energy, that a given amount of fluid on a "regular" turntable is suddenly not enough on a slamming turntable. The increased dynamics changes/excites the resonances already in the arm/cartridge. Since the only way to assess the situation is by ear given all the variables, then manufacturer recommended fluids are moot. Most of them anyway were silicone fluid identical to the recommended silicone fluid sold for $10 at turntablebasics. For an example: the Mayware/Ortofon on a modded AR-XA worked very well with some motor oil, about one-third full. This same tonearm/cartridge on the Lenco required the entire cup be filled with the much thicker silicone fluid, as the Lenco's speed and bass are far more taxing (like a high-performance car). If you buy the silicone fluid then try one drop at a time (the decca International for instance takes only a very small drop of fluid, and it makes a HUGE difference nevertheless) until you hit a sweet spot, it's the only way, and the thicker silicone fluid gives you more range. Good luck.

It should be emphasised that manufacturer's specs are only a guide and can't predict the effects of a cartridge/tonearm combo in the real world.Listen to Jean.The cartridge/tonearm resonance itself is at the core of this issue.A paper by Paol Ladegaard in the Vinyl Asylum library explains this if you care to do further reading.

Johnnantais, thanks for the turntablebasics pointer it was useful in providing a practical viscosity range. I am slowly getting there with a bit of help.

The reason I would still like to know the viscosity of the Mayware supplied silicone fluid it that varying from full to empty should cover the required damping for most cartridges.

I am surprised the turntable has a noticeable effect. By dynamics do you mean structure-borne sound from the motor/bearing?

I reiterate: turntablebasics silicone fluid is quite cheap, real-world price. I have tons of experience with Maywares and other unipivots: olive oil is only good if your 'table has utterly no dynamics, where damping is not required. The more dynamic the sound of your 'table/tonearm/cartridge combo, the more beneficial damping is. The thicker the fluid the more damping an equivalent amount of fluid will apply. Turntablebasics has various grades which they explain in full on their website, click on it. "Standard" fluid provided by Mayware or any other company is meaningless, as it depends on the cartridge and turntable used, and can only be done by ear. A little fluid which is very thick gives the same damping as a lot of thin fluid. Buy the trurtablebasics-recommended fluid for tonearms, and experiment by ear (a lot to a little or none at all) to get the best result. The Mayware/Ortofon combo on a belt-drive requires only a little damping with thinner oil, any more and the dynamics and bass disappear. The Mayware/Ortofon combo on my Lenco requires a lot of thick silicone fluid (the cup filled to the top) because the Lenco dynamics are outrageous. There is no standard.

Thanks for the pointers. I had intended to stick to silicone fluid bought from the local electrical suppliers but do not know what grade to get: a thick grease or a relative thin fluid. Obviously I can buy several grades and experiment but I had hoped to find out what was supplied with the arm originally.

When I had my first Hadcock I was told that STP worked well. A tip I've heard is that radio-controlled model shops sell silicone damping fluid which is identical to hifi silicone fluid - apart from a more realistic price tag.

Just click onto turntablebasics for their silicone fluid, quite cheap. You fill the cup by ear: too much fluid will kill the sound, not enough and you lose control. Easy as pie. I've also used very thick hydraulic oil with success, though your living room will smell like a garage. Olive oil does not have enough damping to it, only good if your 'table has utterly no dynamics.