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Dahlquist DQ-20 Fan club Rant

I just need to say - I have been using DQ-20's for the past 5 years, and recently got the "upgrade bug". So for the past month I've been running around to showrooms and auditioning the latest crop of under-$5,000 Miracle Speakers all of which have glowing reviews, of course. And I've been checking out used speakers that went originally up to $12,000. And you know what - I've given up.

With the disclaimer that everyone's ears are different - I must say that there' justs nothing out there that beats the DQ's (for my particular ears) overall sonically.

There are plenty that have lots of high end zip in the showroom, because they've got metal dome tweeters which will fatigue you real fast at home. Hence so many of the "latest and greatest" hitting Audiogon with bizarre explanations by the owner as to why he's selling 4 month old speakers.
Nobody ever says - "I made a mistake, these suck, but you'll just love 'em. Listen to how real the triangle at the back of the orchestra sounds!"
And there are some that have MORE bass, because they put a big round hole in the cabinet - called a port - that goes, Whoomp, Whoomp, Whoof. (Could somebody let the dog out, please!) To be fair, there are speakers that go lower with good accuracy - but it's nothing that can't be dealt with by adding a pair of quality little subs. And the bass the DQ's do have is tight.
And there are speakers with nicer wood veneers - you want the birdseye maple veneered MDF instead of the cherry veneered MDF - Oh, that's another $1600! Just don't tap the top of the cabinet with your fingernail, you might dent it!

There are NO speakers that I have heard that have sweeter, more coherent, more real midrange and near-highs, period. In combination with my Velodyne ULD, the DQ's can rock, they can do gorgeous vocals, and full orchestra is probably as good as you'll get below $10,000.

There are speakers I've heard that image great, but that is most certainly one of the Dahlquist's strengths, too.

The only thing I truly would wish for in the DQ's is just a bit more zip in the highs.

It's disappointing. I really wanted the fun of some "New Toys", but there is a magic to the DQ's which I assumed was available elsewhere - it's not. My Spicas had it, but they did have much greater limitations dynamically and frequency-wise. I'd have to say that the Vandersteen 3a Sigs were the closest to having that magic and coherency, but not very exciting - and the Green Mountain Continuum 3 was overall the most impressive (but just not quite right for my tastes.)

So what am I gonna do? I'll experiment with the Regnar capacitor upgrade, but I'm not necessarily going to touch the crossovers - that's probably where the magic is coming from. And I'll try a bi-amp configuration. Maybe try a more "modern" Scanspeak tweeter.

And I have this crazy idea to take two pairs, remove the grills, and stack them like quads (on a custom welded rack) with one speaker upside down, so that each set ends up in a D'Appolito configuration. I'd be willing to bet that would be an approx. $1500 set-up that would knock your socks off.

Any other ideas or suggestions out there? I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who's done the Regnar (or other) upgrades. Cheers, Chip

opalchip
opalchip OP
355 posts
 
By The Way, since this thread revived here. I was able to do a side by side comparison of my DQ-20i's and Alon V mk. III's for a full week in my living room - thanks to a very nice fellow Audigoner who was selling the Alons locally. I rigged up a switch so all I had to do was click it with my right foot to swap back and forth for A/B testing. To keep it brief:

The Alons had noticeably better punch in the deep bass. Which is nice BUT, hands down, the Dahlquist midrange was much, much more accurate. I used to play classical guitar, practicing up to 8 hours a day, so I know EXACTLY what a guitar should sound like under various playing modes and the DQ-20's nail it. When A/B switching the coloration of the Alons was obvious.

The tweeter performance of the Alons was marginally better, but not in a significant way.

One thing that drove me crazy (a little) with the Alons was the more open baffle. This created excess "spaciousness" and wider soundstage where it didn't actually exist by bouncing the rear wave off the back wall - unless the speakers were really out into the room. I found that putting pillows over the rear cage dramatically improved the accuracy of the speakers.

The DQ's have a slight dip in the lower midrange which I had noticed previously when testing with an EQ/Analyser, and it was definitely VERY noticeable when A/B'ing in some isolated instances, to the point where it sounded like a viola was playing at half volume, but 97% of the time it was undetectable. It might be worth fixing that bug somehow.

These differences would be difficult to notice without the direct A/B, but there was no question I prefer the Dahlquist when switching back and forth. They are simply more natural.

I may experiment with upgrading the Caps and possibly even swapping into Alon woofers if they can be fit without too much bother.
rds2112
2 posts
 
One of my first hi-fi "experiences" was with the DQ-10's driven by a pair of GFA1's. The shop then received the DQ-20's and I was hooked on hi-fi. They drove them with -- a Carver 1.0t! Despite that, they still sounded great :). DQ-20's and Vandrsteen 2ce's are my faves in that size/price.
itscraigp
2 posts
 
Deja vu! I bought my DQ20i's new in 94. I have changed every piece of front end numerous times. 30wpc hybrids to 250wpc ss amps. Recently I too was pondering new speakers. I listened to many highly rated new offerings. Some where very nice but I could never get away from the "listening to a box" feeling. I did like the new Martin Logan Vantage however @ $5k. So yesterday instead of new speaks I traded my old KRELL Sudio DAC for a JoLida JD 202A Integrated Tube amp. At $500, a cheap but wonderous little fix! That'll hold me for awhile. Enjoy ;-)
mingles
796 posts
 
Hi Opalchip,

In a post dated 12-09-04, you wrote:

"So what am I gonna do? I'll experiment with the Regnar capacitor upgrade, but I'm not necessarily going to touch the crossovers - that's probably where the magic is coming from. And I'll try a bi-amp configuration. Maybe try a more "modern" Scanspeak tweeter."

Do you have the DQ-20 or 20i? Did you do the Regnar cap upgrade? If so, I'm curious what you thought of the end result. I'm also curious what brand cap Regnar sells for $400?!? I sent an email asking, but they never replied. I always thought they were too expensive, regardless of the brand. My gut feeling says they're probably selling Solen's ($40 from Parts Connexion)!

I have the crossover boards for a pair of 20s and I see a distinct difference in the design between the 20 and the 20i. It's subtle, but definitely present. The other major difference is the midbass. The 20i uses a Vifa C13MH-08. The 20 uses an unbranded driver made in Germany (if I remember correctly). I have both drivers and can feel a difference in compliance between the two. The Vifa is much more robust with a stiffer spider.

I purchased a pair of matched 1" Scan Speak 2905-9500 tweeters recently that I want to play with in my DQ-20i project. They are better tweeters than the stock 3/4" 2908. If you do a search, you'll find some good reviews and some interesting high-end speakers using them. I'm going to see how they perform by popping them in without any mods to the crossover. The T/S parameters are very close with the exception of resistance. The 2905 is 6 ohms and the 2908 is 8 ohms. I may have to use a resistor to match driver efficiencies. We'll see how it goes.

http://www.tymphany.com/datasheet/printview.php?id=62
http://www.tymphany.com/datasheet/printview.php?id=53

In any case, I just wanted to say hello! -Mark
opalchip OP
355 posts
 
Hi -

When I posted initially I had the 20's, but now have the 20i's. Not long after my last post we had a baby, which scrapped my time to do any major "projects" for now - so I have not upgraded the 20i's at all - except to replace the woofer surrounds. I did do a side by side A/B of the 20's and 20i's before selling the 20's to a friend. The only difference was subtle and in the mids - slightly better detail. But frankly if I were not doing direct A/B, I doubt I would notice any difference.

The main reason I wanted the 20i's was for biamping without having to tear apart the crossover. I now run the mids/highs with a CJ Premier 11a and the bottoms with solid state. Frankly though, I'm not sure that the DQ circuitry is really well designed for the biamp configuration. I'm no expert in the nuances involved, but I notice that with the tube already amp on, the biasing changes when I power up the SS - which suggests there's a significant interaction going on between the amps... hmmmm. A friend of mine with 20i's tried a number of biamp arrangements (all SS) and decided that a single amp with adequate power sounded much better. So not sure what I'll do with that - I love the CJ's mids but it's bass is just too soft, at least with the sealed box DQ's.

re: Tweeters
Comparing the Freq Response graph of the 1" and 3/4 tweeters, I suspect that the 1" may cure much of the DQ's deficiencies. My measurements a while back (which I posted in some other thread here I believe) showed a dip centered around 3.5khz, which is EXACTLY where the 1" betters the 3/4" on the graphs - that's a pretty exciting find since that dip is what really holds back DQ's performance from being short of spectacular***. Not sure addition of a resistor would be necessary as the actual impedance plots vary by only about 1 ohm. (I assume you know this, but if you do include a resistor - make sure you use a non-inductive type.) I might first consider trying a double length run of higher guage (thinner) wire between the crossover and tweeter to bump up the resistance a bit.

Please let me know how the tweeter swap works out and I may follow in your footsteps!

***A lighter weight, more modern woofer probably would be nice too. The Alon V's did better their performance slightly.

re: Capacitors
On searching around a bit I decided it would be silly to go for the Regnar package, as I could probably buy V-caps or similar myself for less - especially if just recapping the mid/high circuit which is all I think would be necessary. I assume you've seen this recent thread re: replacing DQ caps:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1161475591&read&3&4&

I also mentioned in that thread a worthwhile alteration to the grills that is pretty easy. If you place your hand on them at even moderate volume you can feel very significant resonance. It's like having a passive planar radiator with a random freq. response added to the mix - not good. Damping that grill as much as possible is one of the more important upgrades IMO.
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