Thomas heisig (Syntax) will bash a Raven any chance he gets. Please judge table differences based on overall user feedback & design & your personal experience. |
Syntax,
Do I need to quote you above? And then you make a statement that you bash nothing. Every thread that mentions TW, you have to stick in your comment. Many of us on this forum and quite a few other forums know you have a grudge, but to put it forth repeatedly is unprofessional and poor.
I have never promoted any equipment beyond my personal experience, and even as such I keep it in a very kind tone. I have compared the Raven AC to a much less expensive turntable and have clearly characterized the differences as I heard them in my system. I have not ever criticized any other turntable, even though I have a good friendship with TW.
I also haven't tried to hide myself by changing my user name, and system page so that others might not identify me. And, isn't it clearly against Audiogon rules to change your user name. I wonder for what purpose this was done.
On to the subject of turntables, I will gladly give an honest account of my impressions of the Black Night shortly. It will be in context of my system in comparison to digital as the Raven is no longer with me. I honestly don't know anyone who can honestly compare 2 turntables in an absolute equal setup. There are so many limitations and the only way would be to do the comparison over time. I have learned that no 2 of the same cartridges sound 100% the same. But I can say that having no vinyl in my system for quite a long time now has been extremely depressing. As for the Da Vinci table, it might be very good. One thing I have learned the hard way is the equipment merry go round can often lead to dissappointment. Before my Raven flew away (loved to make that pun), I had 2 of my cartridges locked in perfect setup. I hope I can duplicate it again. Thank g-d for the Wally Tractor as that does help a lot.
I was against a change purely on the difficultly in duplicating the setup the next time around. But then the Black Night has a few design parameters that more than tempted me. In the end I buckled. |
Alectiong,
Not sure what your system is, but for any turntable my first recommendation is before changing any turntable make sure to experiment with proper isolation to realize what you have. This upgrade alone is not subtle and IMO will be your biggest ROI. Even if you get the Da Vinci in the future you will need isolation. As the tonearm needs to be isolated, not just the platter. This of course depends on your room/setup. I honestly believe the "super turntables" out there have obtained their status by including mechanical isolation in their design. Comparing 2 turntables in the same setup where one is an isolated design and the other isn't will show significant differences if the overall isolation of the non-suspended design is poor and will quickly be reflected in the sound. |
Syntax,
It isn't about the designer. I am just against your agenda and your dishonesty. And your agenda has nothing to do with music. It is a personal agenda, and you use these forums to promote it. I don't bad talk brands, I just make comparisons. You bad talk TW constantly and for me that is a problem. Please stay on the German forums or did they kick you off? |
I see some systems recently posted or reposted by Syntax & Thuchan. Thuchan, a marvelous collection of turntables and audio gear. You must have a lot of fun listening and experimenting w. all the possible setups. Is one of your turntables clearly superior to the others? If so in what way, I would love to know. It would be enlightening. No sarcasm in that just curious. It is a dream to be able to compare such equipment side by side.
It just happens that every thread where a TW table is mentioned Syntax makes a negative comment or snide remark. His first post articulates a preference. That is fine. His 2nd post goes over the line. If there was a sonic comparison where I find my Micro Seiki turntables sounded more dynamic or had more extended highs than a different table, I would mention such. Never mind that Syntax has changed from a Basis to a pair of Micro Seiki turntables, suspended on a vibraplane (nice setup by the way). When I go to Audio Shows I can say what I liked, but honestly to say what I didn't like is more difficult as there are so many contributing factors. I will mention that "it is not for me". Quite a few owners of TW tables replied but in very diplomatic means, but you can read that Syntax comments had a affect. I don't do it and don't see the point. The remarks are to demonstrate the character of the poster. I also still don't understand why Syntax changed his user name. |
The Raven Motors are fairly free from vibration. I have seen motors on $10K plus turntables that really do vibrate. There is a dedicated isolation platform for the Raven 3. It has cutouts for the motors. I forget who makes it. Looks great & I have a picture somewhere. For a Raven one since you have more space you might be able to just isolate the turntable but will need to elevate to motor to compensate for the height of the isolation stand, but IMO & correct me if I am wrong any vibration from the motor (if it really vibrates???) would be transmitted by the belt somewhat. But honestly, my homemade stand and setup works wonders. I will qualify it as such, it is close to the equivalent of adding room treatments if you have gone there.
On a different note, the Vibraplane might not be able to sustain the weight if you have multiple arms. I know my cousin's vibraplane got a "flat". But I might be wrong. Check carefully into it. Also, I wouldn't want an isolation platform "vibrating" (since this is how is isolates) separately from the motor. This would introduce speed instability. Hence based on some suggestions here you would need to isolation platforms, one for the motor & one for the turntable. They need to be tuned to the same resonant frequency since different weights will be placed on them. Or you can just simplify and get one large single isolation platform. Complicated it gets if we let. |
I still stand by any isolation system that isolates the motors and the turntable in 2 separate domains (2 separate isolation devices) will in fact induce wow & flutter as the turntable & motor will vibrate independent of each other. This in itself must be considered. So, then we can postulate the best isolation will be a wall mounted stand with the motor suspended apart from the turntable. Unfortunately not a possibility for me and for most.
So back to basics, it is important in the design of any turntable that the motor has as little vibration as possible. This can be measured but in fact no currently published magazines in the US ever do such a measurement. Neither do they measure speed accuracy. But if I remember correctly there are some magazines in Europe which do such measurements. I wonder what motors measured best in terms of speed stability (at the platter, not motor) and in terms of vibration at the motor directly and finally how much vibration is transmitted to the platter/LP from the motor. All good questions. So now, I will also suggest a good isolation system or stand will in fact absorb vibration from the motor and also keep it away from the all important stylus/LP interface.
Now, on to the theory behind more motors. I have thought extensively about this. I am by no means an expert but put forward the following points.
Syncronizing multiple motors does have its challenges and might lead to the less is more philosophy from this perspective.
While a motor pulls the belt on one side of the pully, it in fact pushes the belt & creates slack on the other side of the pully
Using 3 motors will have a "take up motor" that will pull the belt and reduce the slack amount of belt being pushed.
Also 3 motors allows for less contact area between the platter and belt. This results in less surface resistance and less induced vibration from the motor through the belt to the platter. But also, this results in less realized torque at the platter, as there is less contact between the belt and platter. Again 2 items in conflict with each other. Ultimately you will need to let your ears be the judge. I know I have, and have spoken privately about my conclusions with my audio friends.
Back to isolation, I am in agreement that more weight on top of a stand will give you a lower resonant frequency but I think there must be some way to come to an ideal number. I forget my physics as it is over 20 years ago but for anything to isolate it must vibrate. If it is too stiff it won't work. Just think of the difference between a Cadillac suspension compared to a sports car or BMW/Audi for the Germans. One is softer on your but while the other wobbles more. Ultimately I find the stiff suspension of a car better, but ask my father and he would say to opposite.
I am using springs for my stand as many have seen. I wonder if reducing the # of springs will improve isolation. I know reducing the mass on top of the stand sounded worse as the resonant frequency rose too high. But then I might as well use less springs. I wish I remembered my spring constants etc. |
Ducati Rider,
Black Night get close and the fact that the motors are next to each other & contacting the belt almost at one point should be the best of all worlds. Syncronization would never be a problem in such a design.
Dertonarm,
I never said what I like better in these forums between multiple motors or not. Only in private, as my conclusions are not 100% verified. Further 3 motors in theory, can compensate for error as well. They would average the error of any one motor. Again, I am back to the argument there are no absolutes/
As for electron Microscopes and tonearms etc. I think we have to take into account 2 types of vibration. One would be "micro vibrations" and one would be Macro. There can be no one solution that is perfect for all scenarios. Imagine a sprung wood floor. A different isolation option would be needed for isolating footfalls as compared to airborne noise. |
Dertonarm,
We are dealing w. both static & dynamic forms of isolation. I think both needs to be approached independently. But then there are active isolation systems that might handle all. In the end, for my system, I find that a low resonant frequency is a sonic ideal and as stated before one of the biggest sonic upgrades for the $ I have ever done. The other being my room (speaker position etc.). I have also stated here on the forum that even with isolation I found stillpoints to be a benefit. That also says something. But what I don't know (and I do wonder). It was immediately audible. I would imagine Stillpoints provide isolation in a horizontal plain vs a vertical one. Then again Stillpoints under my CDP in combination with springs is also a major upgrade and not expensive. |
Dertonarm,
Did you ever test the Verdier for stray magnetic fields above the platter that would in fact negatively impact a cartridges performance by interfering with the cartridges magnetics? |
The stray magnetic field if unshielded could change VTF as the cartridge moves across the record closer to the spindle/ magnetic bearing. just try working on a cartridge with any screw driver. |
