Mapman..just a motivated consumer. I have always been intriqued by the 90% efficiency of Class D amps compared to 50% efficiency of a/ab amps that send a lot of wasted energy to the heat sinks. In 1958 there was testing done with pulse switching devices with poor results with current stability problems causing the test amps to blow up. When John Ulrick of Spectron owned Infinity speakers back in the late sixties with Arnie Nudell, he installed his first Class D amp into a Infinity sub-woofer in 1968. The rest is history. Regarding Wyred4Sound, EJ informed me back in 2011 that he was working on a new four piece Class D amp that would be part of the new Wyred4Sound Reference Line but unfortunately that project has been cancelled. |
Class D trivia..the world's first commercial manufactured Class D amp was from Sinclair Radionics in England in 1964. It was rated at 10 watts per channel but put out a lower number than the specs indicated. British magazine Wireless World had a article written to print on the amp but there was no many complaints from consumer's with reliability problem's that the article was withdrawn and the amp went out of production. |
Typo.."so many complaints"... |
I do go on forums and threads of many consumers who purchase these products and read their listening experiences which is basically the same thing if I gave you an opinion of what I heard. All of us are aware that its about the sound and not just about the technology. Its a combination of both. Since retailers are dying on the vine, I don't have the time to fly all over the country to all the high end shows just to listen to gear since I don't work for a mag and I'm not a reviewer. However, reading opinions of audiophiles on other forums besides Gon who buy Class D amps will still provide an accurate picture of the sound quality of these products. |
4orreal..I don't have a problem anywhere. Deeply involved as an Audiophile for 40 years, and having spent many years listening to tube and solid state gear in high end store sound rooms up and down the coast back in the late 70's, 80's and 90's, and having owned over ten audio systems, both tube and solid state, I think I have a pretty well seasoned handle on how to assess and evaluate very experienced Audiophiles and their reviews of their listening experiences with Class D amps. Why am I not on the Ncore band wagon and not a Bruno Putzeys groupie? I have already explained in a previous post that the Ncore NC1200 switching amp and the matching SMPS1200 power supply are not the leading cutting edge. Bruno was at the top of his game five years ago but during the past three years better designs have emerged at cheaper prices. Who is the current King of the Class D jungle? ABLETEC!! The finest and most powerful Class D amp on the planet are the Marten M-Amp mono blocks from Sweden. They weigh 100 lbs a piece and run cool. Costs is $45K a pair. These amps ain't for kiddies. The Marten's use Abletec switching amps. Erick Lichte reviewed the Marten's in Stereophile back in 2011 and described them as sounding like very powerful, rich tube amplifiers portraying voice's like Class A amps. The very best value for Class D amps on the market today is the D-Sonic M3 1200S stereo amplifier that uses two top of the line Abletec mono block amps in one chassis. The cost of the amp is a ridiculous $1675.00. The amp puts out 600 watts into 8ohms and 1200 watts into 4ohms. Don't piss $12,000.00 down the drain on a pair of Merrill Veritas amps that have a Ncore NC1200 and SMPS1200 which a set will cost you $1000.00 wholesale, which Merrill paid $2000.00 for two sets for a pair of his amps and doesn't have to dicount to retailers, indicates he's taking you for a ride and laughing all the way to the bank. Buy the D-Sonic instead and invest the remaining $10K to upgrade the rest of your system. I neglected to mention that many Audiophiles on Audiogon give very high praise to the sound quality of the current TEAC integrated amps that use Abletec. |
Guido..Type in on Google search D-Sonic M2 600m and you will find near the top of the page a link to an excellent review on the Polk Audio Forum of the M2 600M's from January of this year. The owner burned them in for a month before posting the review. He's running them through a pair of KEF Q speakers. He removed the cover to show the interior. Excellent piece of work. I sent the interior pic to Dennis at D-Sonic and he confirmed that its the same Abletec mono amp thats used as a pair in the D-Sonic M3 1200S. Read the review. |
Guido..since you are a online magazine reviewer, why don't you arrange for Dennis to send you a pair of the M3 600M's for you to review? After all, its what you do for a living.
Have you ever reviewed a low priced Class D amp with very high quality sound? |
First Guido..pardon my assumption referring to you as a full time reviewer. Why Dennis uses both Abletec and Pascal is for one reason only, sheer power from the Pascal
and high power from the Abletec for most speaker applications. The ALS amp in the M3 600M and the M3 1200S is the most powerful amp from Abletec. The Pascal amp puts out much higher power and Dennis only recommends the Pascal in the M3 1500M for the most extreme speaker applications if you have a King Kong speaker that really needs that much power. The Abletec amp he uses sells more than the Pascal. The chief designer at Abletec, Patrik Bostrom, whom I discussed in a previous Gon thread, has developed an application called AMS,(Adaptive Modulation servo),which is a new loop linearization technology that is very similar to the application designed by Bruno Putzeys in his Ncore NC1200 amp. Both their applications resolve and eliminate the problems with past Class D designs such as phase shifting, feed back, distortion and noise. The Abletec provides a much larger power supply than the Ncore SMPS 1200 power supply for the NC 1200. |
Guido..I meant much larger power output then the Ncore set which puts out 1200 watts into 2 ohms and the Abletec puts out 2000 watts into 2 ohms. Application refers to Bruno's non linear design and Bostrom's ZVS (zero voltage switching) and his ADP,(Adaptive pole control)with his loop lineariztion technology. D-Sonic does not favor the Abletec over the Pascal for musicality in their models. As you are aware, Jeff Rowland is using a Pascal amp in his Continuum S2 integrated amplifier. The review on the D-Sonic M2 1500M amp using Pascal, in the September 2012 issue of 6Moons is very positive. Based on the tech sheets provided by Abletec, the maximum damping factor of the ALC 1000M amp used in the D-Sonic M3 600M and 1200S is 4000. |
Mapman...yes, they are Abletec amps designed by Patrik Bostrom. When I first brought attention to Abletec and Pascal months ago, most on this thread including Guido never heard of these brands. During the past several months I have read at least five other reviews on Forums by owners who purchased these amps with the same impressions. In a Euro high tech magazine interview I read awhile back with Patrik Bostrom, he explained he never liked the sound of Class D amps and his goal was to design an amp that sounds and performs like the best AB amps available. He has designed at least four new circuit technologies that have patents pending. I consider Patrik at the forefront of Class D engineering and rate him #1 and Bruno Putzeys #2. Bostrom is younger than Bruno and is a rising star as a Class D design engineer. The amps are manufactured in China by Swedish company, The Etal Group, who bought Abletec earlier this and work very closely with Patrik. |
edit.."earlier this year"... |
Old news. I already posted that information on September 3rd regarding Etal Group AB of Sweden buying Abletec earlier this year. |
Mcbuddah..the Abltec amps in your M3 600M's use a new technology designed by Patrik Bostrom that utilizes a patented switching technique called phase shift modulation instead of pulse width modulation. Pascal also uses a new patented technology designed by their technical engineer Jesper Hansen called UMAC Class D. Bruno Putzeys with Ncore, Patrik Bostrom with Abletec, and Jesper Hansen with Pascal, have all designed the newest Class D technologies on the market that puts these guys as the current leader's of the newest Class D innovations. I wouldn't worry about your amps, they are excellent designs. |
As I recently posted, Patrik Bostrom designed the worlds finest Class D amplifier with Leif Olofsson, the Marten M-Amp in Sweden. If anyone wants to take the time to check out the genius of Patrik Bostrom, go to the Marten home page and click on the PDF download brochure for the M-Amp which describes in depth innovative details of the advanced technologies invented by Bostrom that reveals his impeccable shear wizardry. An excellent read. |
Jdec..Erick Lichte with Sterophile listened to the amps in early 2011 and came away immensely impressed describing them as sounding like a very powerful rich tube amplifier with the voicing of a Class A amp. Educate yourself and go on the Marten website and read the PDF brochure on the M-Amp and the advanced design technology by Patrik Bostrom thats applied in the amp. |
Patrik Bostrom has filed six patents in the U.S. patent office on his new Class D designs between March 2011 and December 2012. |
Jdec..I neglected to mention the Marten amps do not use the ALC-1000 modules but a superior design thats exclusive to the M-Amp, even though the ALC-1000 has a similar design technology under the hood. Same applies to Bruno Putzeys Mola-Mola amp, which does not use the Ncore NC-1200, but a superior design derived from the 1200. What would really be the cats meow is for Guido to get his hands on the M-amp and the Mola-Mola, and compare the two designs of the Class D Kings. I suspect the M-Amp would trounce the Mola-Mola given its large transformer and massive power supply at 190,000 microfarads per mono block, and its highly advanced design technology described on the Marten website.
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Thats your perspective...not mine. But more than likely it would trounce the Mola-Mola, and it better for $30K more. |
Deadlyvj..I checked out the Spec integrated. Its interior pics and spec sheet are impressive. Its too bad the power output is on the low side. The only other company that currently appears to put out a first class integrated is Jeff Rowland and his Continuum S2 with the Pascal amplifier with a higher power output. Its just a matter of time that other companies will produce high quality, high powered Class D integrated amps besides the low budget ones currently on the market. |
Its Marten..not Martin..there is a clear distinction between performance and price point..well executed designs with higher performance levels require much higher quality, more expensive parts with much lower defect rates which achieves greater performance levels..its called High End.. |
Hifial..The Veritas amps are a rip off for what they cost. Period! You get just over four pounds of Ncore product in each mono block. Merrill does not make available at all interior shots of his amps. He wants you to ignore whats behind the curtain. The Marten M amps designed by Bostrom are in a completely different league. Each mono block weighs 100 pounds due to their massive transformers and large capacitor banks combined with the most advanced Class-D technology on the market. Patrik Bostrom is a force to be reckoned with and its just a matter of time that Audiophiles will recognize that he is on top of the Class-D game globally. |
Luigy39..Bare in mind that you are dealing with the Audio snobs who wouldn't waste their time taking seriously a Class D amp unless it costs $5K or more. These are the numb nuts that live in the "AUDIO MATRIX". Did they take the red pill or the blue pill? They will always fight very hard to defend the iconic Audio establishment brands and to make certain the big business Audio component machine stays in tact. Its the only way they can survive as commercial Audiophiles. I read a recent Audiophile's review on the Polk Forum site who purchased the D-Sonic M3-600M's this year and he was blown away after he burned them in for a month and played them through his KEF speakers. As I already indicated, the M3-600M's are Abletec amps designed by the world leader in Class D technology, Patrik Bostrom of Sweden. Bostrom is well known for designing the world's finest Class D amp, the M amp from Marten at $45K a pair. Just buy the M3-600M's. They are a steal for what they do and you can't go wrong at $1950.00 a pair. Give Dennis a call. |
Aaahh...Pope Guido..excuse me your Eminence for not genuflecting before I enter your apartment at the Vatican. You are an easy set up..I knew you would be the first to reply as a response to my recent post..you follow me around like a lost hound dog with nothing better to do..did you run out of steam over your orgasm's with the Merrill Veritas amps?..I'm curious how much money your taking under the table from Merrill since he offered me $100.00 per customer I would bring to him as a private lead back in November 2011..I rejected his offer since I preserve my self dignity..after all, he has to survive at any cost..part of the AUDIO MATRIX which you ardently defend... |
Correction..Merrill's offer to me was in November 2012... |
Oh..did I upset the Pope Guido minions out there? First hand experience?..Its just as relevant to read on other Audiophile websites/forums of private owner's of D-Sonic amps and their first hand experiences with the amps.. I have read many threads on other sites besides 'Gon of D-Sonic owner's using Bostrom's Abletec amps and the reads are very positive. You should take the time to explore the other forums instead of just relying on threads on Audiogon. |
Pope Guido..no need to write a long winded book every time you post a reply. Phew! We all know your a reviewer of sorts. Eric Lichte with Stereophile did a report on the Marten M amps last winter after hearing them and stated they sound like very powerful tube amps and have the voice of Class A solid state amps. Regarding D-Sonic, I mentioned earlier that Dennis Deacon told me in conversation that his top amp is a Pascal and his M3-600M's are Abletec's. He only admitted this after I emailed him pics of the amps with the tops off disclosing the word Abletec stamped on the circuit board and matching the pics to the models on the Pascal and Abletec sites. |
BREAKING NEWS..Many are aware that during the past two plus years, D-Sonic has been using the ABLETEC ALC-1000 Amp in the D-Sonic M3-600M and the M3-1200S designed by Patrik Bostrom. That amp module has been discontinued and is out of production and replaced by the new ANAVIEW AMS 1000-2600, designed by Patrik Bostrom with ANAVIEW/ABLETEC, and now part of the ETAL GROUP. Recently, Bostrom released the AMS series and his other lines under the ANAVIEW name rather than ABLETEC. ANAVIEW is the first company Bostrom founded. The new AMS 1000-2600 is.. "THE CLASS D AMP TO WATCH OUT FOR." WHY? "AMS"..which means "Adaptive Modulation Servo"..
a revolutionary new loop linearization circuit technology
that was exclusive too, and designed for the worlds finest Class D amp at $45K a pair, The Marten M amp of Sweden designed by Bostrom. For the first time, Bostrom is making available his advanced AMS technology in a line of budget priced class D amps. I hope Dennis Deacon at D-Sonic has picked up on the new AMS series and will use them to replace the Abletec amps.
ANAVIEW AMS 1000-2600 SPECS
TWO CHANNEL STEREO MODE
170 Watts per channel RMS @8 Ohms
300 Watts per channel RMS @4 Ohms
500 Watts per channel RMS @2 Ohms
____________________________________________
BRIDGED TO ONE CHANNEL MODE/MONO
580 Watts RMS @8 Ohms
720 Watts RMS @6 Ohms
900 Watts RMS @4 Ohms
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It appears there is a Anaview Tsunami coming. I was informed in a conversation several weeks ago with Robert Cohrs, the new U.S. regional West Coast Sales Manager for Anaview, that just under 25 U.S. electronic manufacturing companies have purchased quantities of the new Anaview power modules during the past 12 months. Robert would not disclose any of these audio companies since NDA's were signed with Anaview. |
