Long -- sorry.
Holzhauer sez: "I ... have far more faith in a large group of people who are familiar with live music calling a system realistic sounding than I do a set of scientific measurements."
Agreed -- but I think you'd be VERY surprised at how CLOSELY measurements of speaker response can reflect the comments of this "large group of people".
Ever since I've been dabbling at diy & measuring speakers, I have been astounded at this.
Sean notes:
"Other than that, I'm all for products that are designed to work with their environment."
Problem is, which PARTICULAR environment -- i.e. speakers tuned to my present room will not sound as good in another room OR even my next room. So anechoic is the norm (for manufacturers who can AFFORD a dedicated anechoic room).
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On to contemporary, giga$$ passive speakers. I wonder if what Sean is asking for (i.e. good, accurate low end extension) is really possible in a commercial passive set-up?
First, I notice that the mid-to-high extension and response have been addressed quite well... at a cost, of course.
Many expensive speakers offer supersonic response, well into the 30kHz -- some (Kharma, etc) going up to 80kHz with the Thiel & partner hard ceramic (diamond) tweets.
Some (say, many British products) are tuned to a "BBC dip" of a few db towards the 3kHz point. This makes the sound more "pleasant" to the ear.
Many (very expensive) offerings have succeeded in offering a seamless response in the critical midrange -- even more than that (say 100 -- 10kHz)
However, I wonder of there are ANY passive speakers that can offer a bass response to match their upper extension. I really wonder whether it is POSSIBLE to do this WITHOUT a multi-amped set-up where the filter is BEHIND the amps. Eldatford, Sean, many others using this kind of set-up are a case in point.
I mean, imagine the SIZE of, say, a closed box q=0,7 speaker with f3 at ~25Hz and the amplification required to MOVE the thing!!
Worse, what's the market for this thing???
If you look at the Canadian NRC/Soundstage measurements here you will notice more of what Sean relates in his original post -- i.e. many (most) speakers rolling off as of ~60Hz.
Ultimately, I respectfully submit that:
1) choose the speakers by concentrating on timbre, tonality, (and ultimately phase) characteristics in the range down to ~60Hz MAX.
2) If you find that you need extra dbs in the low end spl, add another stereo speaker system (i.e. subwoofers) powered by another amp, for the last two octaves. Make those drivers 15" or better. Pray that the wife won't cringe!
Cheers
Holzhauer sez: "I ... have far more faith in a large group of people who are familiar with live music calling a system realistic sounding than I do a set of scientific measurements."
Agreed -- but I think you'd be VERY surprised at how CLOSELY measurements of speaker response can reflect the comments of this "large group of people".
Ever since I've been dabbling at diy & measuring speakers, I have been astounded at this.
Sean notes:
"Other than that, I'm all for products that are designed to work with their environment."
Problem is, which PARTICULAR environment -- i.e. speakers tuned to my present room will not sound as good in another room OR even my next room. So anechoic is the norm (for manufacturers who can AFFORD a dedicated anechoic room).
-------
On to contemporary, giga$$ passive speakers. I wonder if what Sean is asking for (i.e. good, accurate low end extension) is really possible in a commercial passive set-up?
First, I notice that the mid-to-high extension and response have been addressed quite well... at a cost, of course.
Many expensive speakers offer supersonic response, well into the 30kHz -- some (Kharma, etc) going up to 80kHz with the Thiel & partner hard ceramic (diamond) tweets.
Some (say, many British products) are tuned to a "BBC dip" of a few db towards the 3kHz point. This makes the sound more "pleasant" to the ear.
Many (very expensive) offerings have succeeded in offering a seamless response in the critical midrange -- even more than that (say 100 -- 10kHz)
However, I wonder of there are ANY passive speakers that can offer a bass response to match their upper extension. I really wonder whether it is POSSIBLE to do this WITHOUT a multi-amped set-up where the filter is BEHIND the amps. Eldatford, Sean, many others using this kind of set-up are a case in point.
I mean, imagine the SIZE of, say, a closed box q=0,7 speaker with f3 at ~25Hz and the amplification required to MOVE the thing!!
Worse, what's the market for this thing???
If you look at the Canadian NRC/Soundstage measurements here you will notice more of what Sean relates in his original post -- i.e. many (most) speakers rolling off as of ~60Hz.
Ultimately, I respectfully submit that:
1) choose the speakers by concentrating on timbre, tonality, (and ultimately phase) characteristics in the range down to ~60Hz MAX.
2) If you find that you need extra dbs in the low end spl, add another stereo speaker system (i.e. subwoofers) powered by another amp, for the last two octaves. Make those drivers 15" or better. Pray that the wife won't cringe!
Cheers