Cube Audio Nenuphar Single Driver Speaker (10 inch) TQWT Enclosure

@nitewulf   Yes, I moved to the Nenuphars being driven by Scott Shaeffer's Found-Music 2A3 monoblocks a year ago.

I still have my T+A PA 3100 HV and the Tekton DI SEs.

For reference...a section from a Wikipedia Article on "Damping Factor"

"Typical modern solid-state amplifiers with negative feedback tend to have high damping factors, above 50 and sometimes above 150. High damping factors tend to reduce the extent to which a loudspeaker "rings" (undergoes unwanted short-term oscillation after an impulse of power is applied), but the extent to which damping factors higher than about 20 help in this respect is easily overstated; there will be significant effective internal resistance, as well as some resistance and reactance in cross-over networks an speaker cables.[1][2] Older amplifiers, plus modern triode and even solid-state amplifiers with low negative feedback will tend to have damping factors closer to unity, or even less than 1 (very low damping factor/high output impedance amplifiers approximate current sources).

Large amounts of damping of the loudspeaker is not necessarily better,[3] for example a mere 0.35 dB difference in real-life results between a high (100) and medium (20) Damping Factor.[4] Some engineers, including Nelson Pass claim loudspeakers can sound better with lower electrical damping.[5]

[Start Emphasis] A lower damping factor helps to enhance the bass response of the loudspeaker by several decibels (where the impedance of the speaker would be at its maximum), which is useful if only a single speaker is used for the entire audio range. [End Emphasis]

Therefore, some amplifiers, in particular vintage amplifiers from the 1950s, ’60s and ’70s, feature controls for varying the damping factor. While such bass "enhancement" may be pleasing to some enthusiasts, it nonetheless represents a distortion of the input signal."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor

I forgot to share the damping factor of the amps I mentioned earlier.

Scott Sheaffer Found-Music 2A3 monoblocks:

< 4 Damping Factor
Zero Negative Feedback

T+A PA 3100 HV integrated amplifier:

> 65 Damping Factor
Virtually No Negative Feedback

@philipwu Philip, check out Srajan Ebaen’s very recent review of Aurai Audio’s M1 Classic speaker. At the very end of the review (bottom of the last page / Page 11), Srajan compares the M1 to the Cube Audio Neuphar.

I do not know if the Reference 3A speakers are similar to the Aurai M1’s, or if the comparison is apt,...but his short summary relative to the Nenuphar might provide insight.

@abd1   How are your current speakers setup? If you share their positioning, toe-in and your listening position measurements; as well as your room's dimensions and speaker placement within the room...other owners should be able to give you better (more effective) feedback.

@abd1  We are out the door headed to the beach. In Florida for a short break. I'll respond once we are back inside this evening. 

Your layout pics are super helpful. Hopefully, others will offer their perspectives and advice.

Want to recognize @mikeg  @cal3713  and @alexberger  for helping out @abd1  with his room and speaker placement situation. I found their posts helpful and I learned from them as well. Thanks!

@abd1   My apologies for the late response. My wife got called back to work early which changed our vacation and plans.

A few thoughts...

1. it's not the speakers, which is important to state.

2. If you haven't already done so, I recommend getting a friend to help you with moving the speakers around so you can evaluate from the listening position as the changes are made. An audiophile friend will allow for two sets of ears on the changes / improvements heard from speaker movement.

3. For clarification, the toe-in with the cross over intersecting in front of me was for illustration purposes to make another point. My standard setup has the speakers intersecting behind my head.

4. Though our individual speaker and listening positions may be helpful, given YOUR room, I would only use them as a rough guide.

5. You may have already done so, but if it were me...given your room...I'd start with extreme near field positions for the speakers and you to eliminate first reflections. THEN, I'd move the speakers wider and your listening position further back by small increments UNTIL the point that the first reflections come into play (rear their head). THEN pull that position back in (slightly). IF you can live with that arrangement, you should be set. 

6. IF NOT, look into room treatment as others have mentioned. See if you can get a dealer loan for Stillpoint Aperture II panels with stands. They are pricey, but effective. They allow for easy movement (to test effectiveness) and temporary placement...which may be an advantage in your particular room and for your aesthetic needs. At a minimum they will inform you of the degree your room is involved and give you a starting point to address.

As is usual, I'm multi-tasking at this time of day....I'll follow up with more should I think of additional points.

@vinpic  Thanks so much for sharing your impressions and comparative findings, as an owner, of the V2 and V1 versions of the Nenuphar drivers. It's wonderful getting owner feedback and I hope more owners making the swap post their findings, like you did.

Can't beat... : )

with V2 I am just happier

I'm assuming you have the 10 inch drivers. Is that correct?

 

 

@vinpic  Thanks!

Can you share more about the process for ordering and returning the V1 drivers? For example, do the V1 drivers go back to the dealer or do they go back to Cube Audio? How much time does the owner have to return, should they want to A/B a few times? What is the cost if one wants to hold on to the V1 drivers? Etc.

@toetapaudio   Robert, perhaps you can share more on this as well?

 

+1 @khragon 

We, as in members and posters, have been dealing with Cube Audio and Refined Audio (the U.S. Importer and Distributor) from within the U.S.  Others who have posted from Europe are using their own dealers, etc.

My questions were for the benefit of others reading this thread.

Jon Ver Halen and Grzegorz Rulka have been a phone call or email away for me; as they are for anyone else interested.

Suffice it to say that we are also clear on the value of the doubts from someone with zero exposure to the company, it's products, and it's distribution chain. 

 

I realize you know this...listening via an outboard DAC/Headphone Amp and Headphones highlights remarkable differences in the presentations.

@debjit_g  I am using cables made by Scott Sheaffer. They replaced my Synergistic Research cables (which were also quite good).

@stephendunn  Looking forward to your findings, results and ultimate preferences with anticipatory curiosity!!! 

@toetapaudio  Robert, haven't heard from you in the thread for some time now. All good on your end?

Also wise to have someone else do the swap if one has an ICD or Pacemaker. : )

+1 to @jollytinker 's advice.

Here is Peter Breuninger’s first review of the Nenuphar 10s (amp used was the Ares Cerat Genus 845 Integrated).

I found it valuable to compare both reviews as well as the audio from each.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma7dvPyr5T0&t=15s

Michel Jonasz recording (different tracks):

10 Inch Nenuphar: 19:58 mark.

8 Inch Nenuphar: 16:38 mark.

@keithr   Here is the list of dealers you can demo at, including at Refined Audio in Chicagoland. None listed in SoCal.

https://refinedaudio.com/pages/cube-audio-dealers

I'd contact Jon to see if he has a client in your area who is willing and open to letting you hear them in their home.

Another video from Cube Audio. Nenuphars with Aries Cerat. 

KlangLoft München listening studio: Aries Cerat and Nenuphars

 

@debjit_g If you are still looking at amps, and a 2A3 is still an option...

My Found-Music 2A3 drives the Nenuphars with ease. I top out at 90dB averages when I choose to crank the music. We have had it up over 100dB averages for a couple of audio buddies who prefer their music really loud. Above 90dB levels, my untreated room asserts itself as an unwelcome actor.

[Note: by average, I mean the average over the recording (including peaks)]

My usual (and normal) listening levels are in the low 70dB range with averaged peaks in mid to high 80 (spikes into the 90s); recording dependant, of course.

Room is 19 ft by 26 ft.

I am hoping that the 2A3 can power the Cube’s to a comfortable listening level when the listening position is 8-9ft from the speaker.

Not all 2A3s are created equal. I encourage you to reach out to @charles1dad and others qualified to address build quality.

@cal3713   +1

Btw, I just wanted to say how exemplary this thread is. Just pure, helpful, experience sharing and education. It's really a pleasure, thanks.

General comment for those not active in this thread: the designers of Cube Audio's Nenuphar (and variants) have routinely shown their work paired with low watt (45 and 2A3) SET amplifiers.

Peter Breuninger, of AVShowrooms, fell under the spell of the Nenuphar Minis driven by the Tektron 45/50 SET amp. Just another recent example of the exceptional synergy of the Nenuphar(s) with low watt amps.

A couple of setup changes that might be of interest....

I had an audio friend visit this past weekend. He has broad experience listening to and problem solving for his audio clients, primarily for analog and speaker setups in systems that reach into the stratosphere.

After spending two evenings listening to my system, his primary recommendation was to remove the Nenuphars from the Townshend Platforms.

This relates to @onhwy61  's question regarding driver vs. cabinet contribution and also to @charles1dad  's response to onhwy61 (both posts from a previous page). 

For transmission line designs, my friend finds the floor and room interface and their relationship and interaction with the driver critical to sound quality. 

The results were spectacular. Even he was surprised by the degree of difference. As he put it, greater than a component upgrade.

The speakers were positioned the same as when on the platforms. They remain on Eden Sound Spikes. They are on a suspended hardwood floor. 

After he left, I decided to use the Townshend Platforms for my 2A3 mono blocks. I removed the GAIA footers from the amps and the Timbernation Maple block with brass spikes and Herbie's isolation pucks.

I had to remove the bottom plate on each amp since the screw heads extend beyond the wood chassis. The reason for doing this was to have a completely flat amplifier surface when on the Townshend metal platform. The Townshend Platform has a center perforation; airflow is preserved.

To my ears, removing the Nenuphars from the platforms resulted in a two step gain. The amps on the platforms a three-quarter step gain. Combined synergy, a three step gain. Significant; an understatement.

@stephendunn There are so many variables here, that it warrants an obvious caution: Your Results May (and will) Likely Vary.

I’m glad you are trying it out. Let us know how it works.
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@toetapaudio Robert, I should not have used the generic word ’platform.’

!!!To clarify, the Townshend Audio product I was using with the speakers is the Seismic Isolation Podium.!!!

I also realize my Seismic Isolation Podiums are not ideal nor ideally weighted for the amps. But it is the only application I can use them for due to rack accommodation issues and cable length restrictions.

I was curious, so I went ahead with it.

Here is Mike Girardi's Stereo Times Cube Audio Nenuphar review:

http://v2.stereotimes.com/post/cube-audio-nenuphar-loudspeakers-by-mike-girardi/

Thanks, Mike.

hard to say without trying and comparing with a known reference that works with the Cubes.

+1

@coot  I believe the damping factor is 200. I could not find anything in a quick search regarding negative feedback. Even though the No. 8 has 18 watts of Class A before going A/B, it's 200+ watts into 6 Ohms far exceeds Cube's recommended max of 40 watts.

Will it work, YES. Is it the best match/pairing???

Yes. Davis Ten. Clement needs to up his editing game. : )

Wishing everyone a wonderful, healthy, prosperous, and Audio Filled New Year.

@stephendunn Thanks, Stephen. Credit goes to all.

Looking forward to your reports on what's "up your sleeve" in the coming year!  

@greenhorn20  Welcome to the Nenuphar thread, to Audiogon and to the hobby. Thanks for sharing your journey and your system. 

Congratulations on your recent successful audition and acquisition of the Nenuphars. I've been curious about driving my Nenuphars with 845 Output tubes for some time now, and Viva is a top option.

As Charles pointed out in his post, I also expect the Solistino - Nenuphar pairing to be terrific. 

Perhaps your dealer can loan you the appropriate Aries Cerat and Jadis amps, for comparison purposes?

As for getting "carried away," isn't that what this hobby is all about? I hope you continue to be "transported" to happy places with your system! 

Hi Charles,

- Melody I2A3 (Push-Pull 18 watts) integrated amplifier

 and the

- Ayon Spirit II (KT-88 Push-Pull 40/60 watts Triode/Pentode) integrated amplifier

I have fond memories of the Vaughn anchored system. 

@abd1 I cannot think of a single post from a Nenuphar owner that voices concern over voice! : )

Mike Girardi’s Stereo Times review discusses the performance of Herbie Hancock’s ’Gershwin’s World’ in depth and makes a particular point with Joni Mitchell’s vocals on the recording.

This statement from Mike should allay any concerns you have:

Once you listen to vocals on the Cubes, it’s "Game over" for most multidriver loudspeakers.

My Jim Jordan’s Vaughn Loudspeakers utilized a RAAL ribbon to extend his widebander’s performance. I totally get what you are saying about how RAAL implementations sound. Based on my memory of my own RAAL based speakers (as well as others I have heard), I don’t believe you have anything to be concerned about. BTW, I had the same concern... prior to purchasing the Nenuphars.

My only concern with the Cube’s is how they handle voices. One of my favorite speakers uses a RAAL ribbon tweeter and I love the extension and air without harshness. I know the Nenuphar’s won’t get that extension, but I’m hoping the texture, tone, detail, imaging, dynamics, etc. all make up for it. Has anyone here compared the Nenuphar to a ribbon or berylium tweeter?

@abd1 Can you share more about your needs and goals?

I learned there are far more options than I expected, due to the Nenuphars being easy speakers to drive. I was skeptical that my 2A3 amp would be sufficient, yet it was and is. I would even go so far as to recommend a 45 based SET, though with some caveats. The sweet spot from a power perspective, in my opinion, are the 300B amps.

Since you are looking at tube amps, consider those with zero negative feedback (or those that use low levels of NF).

I recommend reaching out to @charles1dad who is very knowledgeable in this area.

I’m looking for something that’s going to maximize the qualities of the speakers

@abd1 I’d start by learning how your system sounds with the Tektron EL-84s driving your Nenuphars. That may (will) help inform next steps...

If you have regrets letting your LTA amp go, I suggest bringing in a new unit to test with the Nenuphars, after the Nenuphars have 200+ hours on them. I’m not encouraging you to do so, but LTA has a generous return policy should you need to use it.

Don Sachs’ preamps are very well regarded, therefore going amplifier only (versus an integrated) is certainly an option. An integrated option is totally fine as well.

The Ayon Audio Crossfire PA Stereo amplifier is one of my own top choices to tease out how a higher power output design (30 watts) compares to my 2A3 amps (3.5 watts).

Member @mikeg used the Ayon Odin III amp in his review and is familiar with the Ayon line. I suggest reaching out to him for insight and advice, if Ayon is an option.

I concur with the entirety of Charles’ preceding post. To reinforce one point, lower output amps do not generate much heat. My solid state class A amps have been the worst offenders, when it comes to heat generation.

Final point: consider your system as a whole (panel box forward through to your room)... not just the amplifier - speaker pairing... to inform and guide your choices.

Based on reading through your posts, it’s clear you know what you are doing. Trust yourself.

The damping factor is rated at 10. Is that low enough for the Nenuphars?

Yes, it is low enough. Quite good, actually.

Came across this video explaining damping factor while researching amplifiers. Coincidence(?) or is Google / YouTube keeping track... : )

A primer on damping factor from Hans Beekhuyzen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idxT7VVYyxo

[Note: if someone previously posted this, my apologies. Let me know?] 

@yorkshireman Based on gut feel, I believe it will be a great pairing.

You will have to compare with another amp to determine how the negative feedback of -6dB and the -80dB S/N ratio play out for you.

Have you made a choice between the Nenuphar and Nenuphar Mini?

Coincidently, I recently considered a permalloy ’based’ amp. : )

A possible / potential amplifier pairing for the Nenuphars, for interested parties:

http://www.myemia.com/50%20amp.html

There is a listing for the EM/IA Permalloy 50/300B monoblock amps and power supply at USAudiomart. The Listing Title is: "Jeffrey Jackson (Experience Music) 300b Type 50 Switchable amp"

Jon Ver Halen, the Cube Audio Importer, used the Type 50 version to drive and showcase the Nenuphar Minis at Capital Audiofest 2019.

[AVShowrooms Video]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0XFsF6RPfY

[Note: I do not know the seller personally; simply bringing it up as an option]

@charles1dad  @stephendunn   Thank you.

I need to take photos early in the morning (before reflections are dominant). The wood looks so much better in natural light. The American cherry sides of the amps and power supplies have darkened and go well with the American walnut of the rack.

Stephen, the jellyfish image is actually black and white...the phone camera creates the blue effect (the blue light from some of the components doesn't help). 

I like the placement of your Nenuphars well into the room. It provides them plenty of room to breathe and perform at their best.

@charles1dad   Charles, for reference: the drivers are 6 feet from the TV screen and 9 feet from the front wall.

@abd1 Congratulations on acquiring your Canary M90 amp. How soon will you receive your Nenuphar Minis?

@jayctoy  Bon, share your impressions once you audition. Which models?

Bring out all the superlatives in the audiophile handbook (including where the bottom part of your face hits the floor) and add in something uncanny that had to do with speed and pace that focused my interest with a life like quality I’d never heard before.

@stephendunn  Congratulations on achieving what you are with your system, and thanks for sharing your findings and results with the Omega pc feeding your VR integrated.

For the past nine months, I’ve been thinking through and processing possible amplifier pairings for the Nenuphars. Came close to acquiring: Audion Golden Dreams, the New Audio Frontiers 211 SET, Ayon Crossfire/Vulcan EVOs, EM/IA 50/300b, etc.

I made a choice of designer/builder a couple of weeks ago and committed to the specific build today. After one heck of a journey across brands, a variety of power output tubes, SET vs. Parallel vs. Push-Pull builds, etc., etc. I ended up very close to home, in amplifier speak.

I’m moving forward with a custom 2A3 build by Scott Sheaffer (Found-Music). This build will ’make less power in the zone’ than my current Found-Music 2A3s (2 to 3 watts vs. 3.5 to 4 watts).

Second finalist was the Thomas Mayer 300B multi-chassis build.

The amps should be in system by February / March.

A number of members helped with this. THANKS to all. You know who you are!!!

Thank you, Charles.

@cal3713   Thanks! I'll put together a proper summary of differences, etc. and get back to you.

Some high level differences: 2 chassis vs. 4 chassis. Copper vs. Silver wiring. Different output transformers. AC heating vs. DC heating. Etc.

Here is some information on my current 2A3 amp, courtesy of What's Best Forum:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/found-music-2a3-amplifier.4279/

For Cal; and others who may be interested...

Here are some of the general differences between the custom 2A3 build by Scott and his former, my current, Found-Music 2A3 amps:


* 4 chassis design, heavier construction vs. a 2 chassis design

* DC regulated filament/heaters vs. AC heated

* driver circuitry and theory is different, now actively loaded

* driver tubes are mirrored vs. a single tube

* active regulation in PS

* amps will be prioritized for signal purity and performance...amps I have were designed to prioritize output power

* high purity silver cabling throughout vs. copper cabling

* Different and ’superior’ output transformers


I’ll update as the build progresses.

"All I can say is I am completely overwhelmed by how they sound with the Nenuphars ....to the point of not being able to sleep more than two hours at a time.

He [your audiophile friend] was so impressed (enthralled is the word he used) by the Nenuphars and the grain free sound of my system with the FW SIT-1 amplifiers. He also mentioned the Nenuphars were free of colorations, slice threw music like butter, and had endless high frequency extension which I fully agree with."

Loved your post, Mike. What a fantastic result. Congratulations!!!

Is your friend still "jaded?" : )

@abd1 Great to hear you have your Walnut Mini's in system!!!

Keep us updated on the break in and final results.

Regarding photos, you can post / create:

- in the Virtual Systems area
OR
- use a link to an external photo site.

It would be great to see them.

@abd1 Thanks for posting the photos of the Walnut Nenuphar Minis and your room setup. The finish you chose looks terrific. I love walnut furniture and the grain and details of your speakers are gorgeous and matched!!! It’s good (for me) to know Cube Audio has ’delivered’ on a wood veneer should I choose to go that route in the future with one of their other speaker offerings.

On another note, I accept the results you are sharing based on the setup and the restrictions due to your current room, however, my experience is conflicted over the positioning of the speakers and your room.

For me, those first reflections are critical and are best balanced (three dimensionally). The left speaker being so close to the wall and in the corner and up against a window versus the right speaker being completely open to open space to the right of it would, in my experience, lead to a significant imbalance.

It’s not clear from the photos where / how far your seating position is? Do you prefer listening near field or do you prefer listening with greater room involvement / contribution?

If you are open to a suggestion and are interested in trying it out, let me know?

For reference, your system photos>>>   

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/9181