Cube Audio Nenuphar Single Driver Speaker (10 inch) TQWT Enclosure

RY, you know the solution: Nenuphar BASiS. Sealed cabinet. Full Metal (Jacket) Contact. : ) 

Robert, that was slightly’ tongue in cheek’...though it is a simpler (and wishful) solution to the previous few posts on the topic. : )

BTW, have you had a chance to hear the BASiS units? If so, thoughts?

Like you, I’m impressed with low frequency level, performance and quality from the ’standalone’ Nenuphar.

@stephendunn  This review may be of interest to you as Srajan Ebaen mentions going forward with the Linlai 2A3 for his VR linestage. 

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/linlai2/

@rwpollock  Good question(s).  Since Srajan Ebaen is very familiar with Nelson's First Watt efforts, perhaps an email to Mr. Ebaen (via his website) would shed light?

Regarding the Kaluga, perhaps @toetapaudio can comment? I believe his current favorite is Bakoon. 

I'm a bit late to the party

@mrubey   I think not.  Sounds like you've been partying for the better part of a year now.

Wonderful to hear!!!

Stephen (and other posters here who are interested in this), I've posted your question about damping factor and scale / image size in the "Damping Factor - Interesting Article" thread.

I'll cycle back, with a copy/paste, if the 'topic' is addressed and/or answered there.

FYI - There are two Nenuphar active listings here on the 'Gon. Both in the Black finish. One New, the other a showroom demo.

Good points. Adding to Cal’s suggestion, if the Rossi allows for it (I haven’t checked)...I recommend running the Pass XP32 as Pre and the Rossi as Amp.

Cycling back from the 'Damping Factor' thread.

Duke's ( @audiokinesis ) answers and findings are likely relevant to what member owners of the Nenuphar are reporting on.

Copied here:

First a bit of background: I design speakers with fairly high and unusually smooth impedance curves so that they have very similar response with both amplifier types across most of the spectrum, and then include user-adjustable bass tuning to adapt to the effects of amplifier damping factor into the bass region impedance peaks. So frequency response differences are minimal, and generally relegated to the region south of 100 Hz, where there can be a "free lunch" to the tune of an extra 1/4 to 1/3 octave extension with a low-damping-factor amp.

The following is my opinion; I can’t "prove" any of this. Consider these to be generalizations; I’m not a writer of audio prose; and [disclaimer] I'm an Atma-Sphere dealer:

With low-damping-factor tube amps, I hear more of a sense of ease and liveliness and immersion. I’m hearing more stuff going on, it’s like the voices and instruments have more texture. Music is more engaging at lower sound pressure levels, which I think is related to the low-level details not needing as much SPL in order to be audible. At high sound pressure levels the difference is arguably even more noticeable, as there is an absence of the edginess which often starts to set in as the SPL goes up. I’m hearing more of a difference in soundscape and ambience from one recording to the next, with more of a sense of being "transported into" the recording, especially when it’s a really good one. There is a powerful emotional experience (some might call it spiritual) which some music can convey, but it calls for intensity and density and freedom from distractions. The least expensive amplification I have found which can do this is low-damping-factor tubes... specifically, the Atma-Sphere S-30 and M-60 [dealer disclaimer reminder].

For those using Bakoon amps, here is member @jtgofish 's response to Duke's above copied post:

All that is what I hear with Bakoon amplifiers.Which are class A/B but which are reputed to be zero negative feedback/high output impedance/ current drive/probably low damping factor amplifiers.In simple terms they simply sound incredibly clear and pure.Which I have really only heard elsewhere from expensive SET amps like the Kondo Ongaku.

JT, thank you.

FYI, since Ag / Argentum, aka Silver is on the menu...

The SR speaker cables I used are high purity silver 99.999%

The Scott Sheaffer speaker cable I am using is also high purity silver, though I do not know the specific purity level. Knowing Scott, his sourcing and selection is impeccable.

As mentioned above, though Scott's cables edged out the SRs and I clearly prefer them in my system, the SR cables are superb.

Good to read the back and forth above. As @debjit_g mentioned, the thread had been dormant for a bit.

@yorkshireman  Welcome! Did @toetapaudio 's response answer your question? Can we help with anything else?

@cal3713   Yes and remarkably consistent findings.

@stephendunn  I looked as well. Unfortunately, not. His audio rack does offer clues. : )

@mac48025  Tom, welcome back!!!  @redwoodaudio had asked, on Page 10 of the thread, for comparisons with his Omegas. I know you haven't heard the Nenuphars but have been thoroughly researching them. Perhaps he and you can connect, since both of you have Omegas?

@rwpollock  Thanks for your ongoing updates. They are fascinating and informative!  Neat storylines as well!

@bobheinatz Bob, I would personally choose the Nenuphar Mini (F8 Neo driver) speakers for that sized room (11 x 12).

Keep in mind, I have my Nenuphars (10s) pulled way out into the room and listen to them in a somewhat nearfield position. My room is 19 by 26.

Perhaps those who have their Nenuphars placed much closer to the front wall will provide their recommendations?

I took delivery in late February of the Cube Audio Nenuphars in the White Piano Finish.

My system is 100 percent computer audio for source.

Tidal / Qobuz via Roon

Small Green Computer Server > Sonore Signature Rendu SE.

Major components are:

Denafrips Terminator DAC > Grandinote Genesi Preamp > Found-Music 2A3 monoblock Amps > Nenuphar Speakers

@wig Thank You!

I’d love to hear your take and impressions of your new single full-range driver speakers.

@steakster @jayctoy

I’m breaking in a pair of Emission Labs 2A3 Solid Plates. Once I have around 100 hours on them, I’ll report back.

I will bring the SEs back into rotation at that time.

@spiritofmusic  The 6Moons review does compare the Nenuphar and the Zu Druid VI  [Note: VI within the body of the review but V listed in the intro section under speakers].

@exlibris  Do you know when you will be able to home demo the Nenuphars?

@roadwarrior75  @steakster   and others.... I've been reluctant to post on your comparative questions due to my discomfort in possibly offending my fellow Tekton brethren. I have also developed a number of wonderful friendships initiated because of the Tekton Design speakers.  However, I need to cover this, so it may as well be now.

I encourage @charles1dad  to offer his take, as he's been with me throughout the move to the new amplification and speakers. He is more diplomatic than I and is better at communicating these matters, especially since he is approaching this from a non-emotional perspective.

First, I've heard the same regarding the presentation / performance at Axpona. 

In summary,  @douglas_schroeder was prescient in this post on the thread exploring my options prior to the Nenuphar purchase:

"When you build the alternative system and get it tuned up you will question everything you think you know about your reference."

There is no better way to elaborate on what I need to share... Douglas Schroeder's post conveys it all.

My reference has moved and changed, and in significant ways.

I have nearly 850 hours on the Nenuphars and am closing in on 250 hours on the Emission Lab 2A3 Solid-Plate tubes. The rest of the system, including cabling, has many, many more hours on it.

For all purposes the system is fully settled, though there are areas I will be addressing in the near future. For example, further positioning efforts, a new IC termination that will eliminate the adaptor, isolation, etc.

Three nights ago I brought the Tekton SEs into my system. This was a short A/B and I will be conducting a more thorough one. My family has been visiting this week and my brother was interested in comparing the two speakers (the rest of the chain was identical). 

He asked that we move the SEs out after a half hour. I pulled them out at the 2 hour mark. The SEs, in comparison [EMPHASIS: In Comparison only], sounded veiled, flat, slower, less engaging and involving than the Nenuphars.  He commented on how incredibly real and natural the music sounded via the Nenuphars and he was astounded at the level of clarity and musical information conveyed. He was especially surprised by the bass performance and insisted that I was 'lying' to him when I told him there were no separate bass woofers or subs in the system.

Nothing about the SEs has changed. They are likely performing at their very best at this point in time based on my current system. What has changed is my reference and preferences.

I have not heard the Tekton PS12 or PS15, so I cannot comment on them. 

Thanks, @jmolsberg  Here is Stereophile's quick take from the Munich show:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/cube-audio-nenuphar-loudspeakers-teutron-tu-2a350s-1-amplifier-lampizator-big-7-dac

NOTE: The amps being used are TEKTRON (not teutron)  : )

Cube Audio's website (regarding the F10 Neo driver in the Nenuphar):

"Cones and whizzers"

    "Once we had the motor ready and capable to control heavier moving cones and suspensions mass, it was time to do the cones. Plenty of experience for experimenting with 8" drivers came in handy. We knew where to start with. But that was basically it. 10" is a completely different beast. For a very long time we were not satisfied with the sound. There was a time where we didn't have more bass than from 8" driver which is basically pointless. Multiple times we had a prototype cone geometry that on measurements was absolutely linear and looking amazing to the point that studio monitors could be really envy, but the sound was dull and boring. Those times were very frustrating. Sometimes we thought that it is impossible to do a really amazingly sounding 10" fullrange driver. But we never gave up and experimented more and more with even more drive every next day.

​

   It was definitely worth it.  The final design consist of 4 cones. One being the main cone and 3 whizzer cones. The smallest cone is responsible for highest frequency range. With only one standard whizzer we never would never be able to go up to 18 kHz with a driver that in proper cabinet reaches 30 Hz region. So adding that little whizzer, solved one of the issues that we had. But there were plenty more of them. When you add a whizzer to the cone, there is additional interference between the cone and the whizzer. The mini high frequency whizzer and the main whizzer got together really well and the sound was way better than without it. There was still a geometry issue present though. Its diameter, height, surface, geometry, stiffness, damping, coating all are a part of final sound equation.

 

   To achieve the right amount of sound pressure in desired frequency region the most important of them all is geometry. There was one geometry that gave us amazing rich, colourful midrange, but on the other hand it interfered with the main cone in such a way, that a mods were pumping up mid frequencies. Since "shouty" vocals were not desired,  we had to do something about it. Here's where the third whizzer comes into play. That is a very elegant solution to change the interference mods of the whizzer and the cone. Due to changed geometry and distance, amplitude of the modes decreased. As a result  overall sound became sweeter, richer and more natural. At that moment we knew that this is the way to go."

More information on the driver design and approach here: 

https://www.cubeaudio.eu/cube-audio-f10-neo

Linked below is the latest review of the Grandinote Genesi preamplifier, from Mono & Stereo. It is the preamp I am using in my system for the Nenuphar speakers.

https://www.monoandstereo.com/2019/05/grandinote-genesi-preamplifier-review.html?fbclid=IwAR1TTVYR6ROK4FO_wcMFyX7xUqXQHEEopylQDY-bVF8jN--8tP4yvIj67HY

Congratulations to Massimiliano Magri (Max) of Grandinote!!!

@roarwarrior75  The Genesi Preamp only offers BAL Inputs and BAL Outputs.

I have not personally compared it with the LTA pre.

I agree...from everything I read and hear from LTA owners, their gear is terrific and a good value.

@deepfield  Thanks for sharing your impressions of the Nenuphar and Magus speakers. Much appreciated.

I estimate my Nenuphar speakers have 1500 hours on them. I kept precise numbers through early May and had logged 1100 hours as of May 7th. The EML 2A3 tubes have approximately 900 hours on them. 

In addition to break-in, I have worked on improving isolation and grounding. 

Next areas of focus are my Streamer / Player. I may move to a new brand or upgrade my current units. An in-home demo of a Server (being setup) should help decide direction. I will implement a full fiber optic network solution [I am 100% streaming] should I stay with my current server and player.

In the pipeline is a new Linear Power Supply (should be in system by the end of next week) for dedicated (and higher quality) supply duty for my Server. A full system power conditioning / power supply loan is in the works.

In case it isn't obvious, this is my way of saying that I am beyond pleased with the performance of the Cube Audio Nenuphar speakers as well as the components in support of them: Denafrips Terminator DAC > Grandinote Genesi preamp > Found-Music 2A3 monoblock amps. And committed to this system.

I estimate close to 750 hours of active and engaged listening time. The Audio Room serves as my home office (minimal, movable and height adjustable desk/seating in the 'sweet spot' and fanless (read silent) work electronics in an environment that measures in the high 40s for ambient noise, with the AC intake two rooms away serving as the primary culprit... when disabled: mid to low 40s).

Given my time and familiarity with the speakers, I'm ready to start writing a review.

@toetapaudio Fidata’s XS server is very much in the mix. My concerns with it are lack (?) of Linux support. I’m Chrome based - though I do see Android control. I’m also unsure about direct Roon support (though I can load / manage it from my end).

Sound quality and overall performance for the Fidata servers (I imagine) are undoubtedly excellent. I’d love to learn more from you about their two products and other server brands you have experience with.

The Pink Faun 2.16X is also on the radar, as is Taiko Audio’s SMG server. Both are much higher priced options.

@steakster  @charles1dad   Thank you! I'm getting there. Still working on it. : )

steakster: What dedicated conditioning solution(s) are you using?

@toetapaudio  Thank you for your detailed response. 

I will reach out to you via PM with additional questions.

Pink Faun is attractive because I can spec a Roon only build, thus eliminating the ripping and storage (which I do not need). 

432 has an interesting approach. I was aware of them, but your mention had me digging deeper last night. Thanks.

@steakster  Thank you! I checked out Transparent Audio's site.

My "review" of the Nenuphar speakers has taken on a life of it's own. An ongoing (everlasting) holding pattern.  : )

Recent adjustments to my system have reaped significant benefits. This means the work continues. There are additional changes and approaches on the table. An evaluation by a very experienced set of ears, this coming week, will be telling and informative.

A shout out to @toetapaudio for his efforts, guidance and help in squeezing more out of these amazing speakers. Thank you very much, Robert.

Here are some of these recent changes. Most are to the very front end of the streaming chain.

Two Keces P8 ultra low noise linear power supplies to power the server (one unit) and the Netgear Orbi Pro satellite plus my Wyred 4 Sound Remedy reclocker (for TV/movie sound).

I replaced my Cox Router (cable modem/router/wifi/telephony) unit with an Arris Surfboard SB8200 cable modem (only).

I replaced my Google WiFi Mesh Network with the Netgear Orbi Pro Access Point and Satellite.

There were a number of network and network management reasons for choosing the Orbi Pro but standout ’audio-related’ features include it’s easily accessible ports (and with wider separation), stability, mounting flexibility, and standard 2.1mm by 5.5mm power input (this makes sourcing custom DC cables much easier).

The addition of an ADD-Powr Sorcer x4 power conditioner. This unit is in addition to the passive Akiko Audio Corelli already in system as well as the SR PowerCell 12 SE supply/conditioner and the PI Audio UberBUSS supply.

More information, including a link my early review of the Sorcer x4, in a thread I started:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/add-powr-by-coherence-systems-power-conditioning-products

I am also trying a different component isolation approach...doubling up on Herbie’s and Ingress Engineering solutions (prior to trying new products).

Finally, the new DSP board for my Denafrips Terminator DAC is enroute.

@mrubey  I completely get and relate to what you are experiencing. :)

I’ve stumbled onto the grail.

Congratulations!!!

@mrubey Here is the link to my system and room details.

https://audio-system-details.blogspot.com/

The only change is the addition of the SR Galileo PowerCell SX which is currently under evaluation.

I’ll give Nima Ben David’s "Resonance" a listen. Thanks.

I've revised and updated my initial first draft on the Synergistic Research Galileo PowerCell SX power conditioner and SRX power cable, hopefully making it an easier and cleaner read. I'll revisit and continue editing later today.

https://galileopowercellsx.blogspot.com/

The addition of the SR power conditioner and the power cable has enhanced and increased the perceived size of the Nenuphar's. They now present like much larger speakers. I've explained this point within the review.

The preceding post was deleted for duplication reasons.

@sakso136  Which server are you moving to?

Regarding the new driver break in, I'd check with Cube to see if they ran those drivers prior to shipping to you...as that might be a factor.

They should sound good enough as you have a week and a half on them. You could try higher volumes and a break in specific disc / tracks?

Here is a response I sent to @toetapaudio on my personal experience with break in:

"....Cube, if memory serves me, felt a few hours of runtime would be sufficient.

Jon Ver Halen, the US importer, put it at 40 hours or so.

Based on my experience, I peg it at about 150 hours before the Nenuphar start coming into their own. They definitely started sounding better after Jon's recommendation of 40+ hours. So take 40 as a minimum, minimum...with 150 as my personally recommended minimum.

For 'full' break-in around 500 hours for musical beauty, wonder and engagement.

An industry person I respect and who has significant experience tuning analog gear, felt 1000 hours would be needed. I realize 'hours' of burn-in are a hot topic with folks falling on either side of the divide. I took his feedback and pushed for that 1K mark, after which I consider break in to be complete. However, If I were advising, I'd stick to the 500 hours with folks generally being happy with the results post 200 hours."

Cube Audio Nenuphar Review by Dawid Grzyb / HiFi Knights:

http://hifiknights.com/reviews/speakers/cube-audio-nenuphar/

@saleh84  I second  @toetapaudio 's congratulations on acquiring your Cube Audio Nenuphars!!!

Thanks for sharing how incredibly well the speakers are working for you, paired to your Line Magnetic 845 SET amp.

May be yes or may be no...

As compared to $46,500 for a pair of 5 inch Field-Coil Drivers...and...
$23,000 for the cabinets... : )

* ~ June 2009 pricing.

Dawid Grzyb // HiFi Knights addresses this head-on in his review:

http://hifiknights.com/reviews/speakers/cube-audio-nenuphar/

The Cube Audio Nenuphar speakers list for USD $14,900 shipped via Refined Audio, Forest Park, IL (Chicago). Jon Ver Halen is the proprietor.

I have replaced the front stock spikes and the rear rubber bumpers with brass spikes, as a first-step isolation effort.

My goal is to maintain the factory height from the floor and the factory angle - front to rear. [Note: the Nenuphar speakers are bottom ported]

I went with Eden Sound's Solid Brass Spike (extra large) for the front with it's matching Point Receiver (extra large)  and the Solid Brass Hemi-Spike (extra large) for the rear.

Immediate performance / sound quality differences and upsides. I will report more later.

@stephendunn  Congratulations and welcome! Looking forward to your impressions.

Robert, thanks for posting this. The link above is to AVShowrooms review of the Cube Audio Nenuphar (10 inch) speaker.

If you want to hear Peter Breuninger’s closing summary it starts at the 31 minute mark.

Jon Ver Halen's discussion about the design of the driver and the speaker is very informative.

Here is the main page, that contains more information, including the review Robert links above.

https://www.avshowrooms.com/cube-audio-nenuphar-loudspeakers.html

@cal3713 Cube Audio have made slight changes to the 10 inch driver for their integrated-into-cabinet ’subwoofer’ offering.

I recommend checking with Jon Ver Halen (if you are in the U.S.) on driver selection, just in case, since you are planning on adding subs. There may be some advantage to using the ’newer’ design in your planned application.

+1 on what @toetapaudio posted. I also find no need for sub augmentation...and my Nenuphars are pulled far out in the room. Peter Breuninger (and others) find placement closer to the wall only adds to the Nenuphar’s excellent low frequency performance.

@stephendunn  It's going to be quite a Tuesday! : )

I concur with Charles.

I'm curious to learn how your Shindo source and pre sound via the Nenuphars, once the speakers are broken in.

Re. your cable question: I am using Scott Sheaffer's analog cables. If you are interested in reaching out to him, let me know. 

Synergistic Research for power and digital cables.

My first response was an unexpected sense of relief, not just a letting go of my concern over making the right choice, but a relief of years of searching for something I hoped was out there but hadn’t yet found.

... listening to the Nenuphars brought on the same feeling I had when I listened to the Aidas: a holy-cow-kind-of-transportation, a feeling of encountering the real thing, an immersion into where the recording is taking you, like the struggle is over and there’s nothing left but to face the music.

Congratulations Stephen! What an outcome. So happy for you!

Which begs the question: "Would a 2A3 or 300b amp [offer] even more?"

I’m using 2A3 monoblocks with Emission Labs 2A3 Solid Plates. I encourage you to try out both 300B and 2A3 amplifiers and compare against your LTA and First Watt SIT-3 amps. Whichever amp you choose will be a choice among an abundance of riches, so to speak.

Joining the Nenuphar club soon... going to pair them with either PS Audio BHK 250 or Schiit Aegir Monoblocks... hoping one of these will work well with the Cube

The BHK 250 has a Damping Factor of >150 (Stereo) >350 (Mono)

The Schiit Aegir has a Damping Factor of >100

Both figures are from the respective manufacturer's product specifications.

Here is what Dawid Grzyb of HiFi Knights states in his review of the Nenuphar (following 6Moons reviewer Srajan Ebaen's lead):

"However, Srajan’s own take on this particular model mapped its short albeit specific list of demands I could work with. Instead of miraculously synergistic plots of unfathomable nature, it involved today’s simple mechanical fondness towards amps of high output impedance, which translates to low damping factor its F10 Neo drivers simply benefit from, that’s the key secret. Zero feedback amp design was additional plus. The man’s investigation led to First Watt SIT-1 as his top pick for Nenuphar, the same manufacturer’s SIT-3, F5 and F7 machines were next in line, then there was Pass Labs XA-30.8, Kinki Studio EX-M1 and LinnenberG Liszt monos were found as the least suitable match. All listed hardware leaves us with respective DF values of 2, 30, 80, 100, 150, 2000 and 500."

Moving to his own amps, Dawid states:

"I had four amps at my place to tinker with; Bakoon AMP-13R, Kinki Studio EX-M1, FirstWatt F7 and Trilogy 925. The Bakoon and Kinki’s integrated were off the table due to their output impedance far too high, Nelson Pass’ F7 power amp wasn’t ideal but feasible, but the best companion for today’s was my 135wpc 925 integrated. Zero feedback design? Check. High output impedance? Check, 0.5 to be exact, which leads to not quite perfect but still respectable DF value of 16. If this wasn’t the golden ticket, it must’ve been silver at least."

Dawid also enjoyed this combination: "Once the Nenuphar’s performance with my Trilogy 925 was mapped, it was time to move to the two-piece set in form of First Watt F7 fronted by Thöress DFP line stage."

Bottom line: Zero negative feedback and damping factors (preferably under 100; the closer to 0, generally the better) are noted by both reviewers.

@charles1dad  is correct in pointing out these areas in the previous post. 

Full HiFi Knights review here: 

http://hifiknights.com/reviews/speakers/cube-audio-nenuphar/

@khragon Both of your amps will work. As Charles, @cal3713 and @toetapaudio mention, it will be interesting which of the two you prefer. If you bring in other amps to audition it should get very interesting. : )

I have driven the Nenuphars with the T+A PA 3100 HV and the sound is very good but not to the level of where it is with the 2A3s. Of course, my personal tastes need to be factored in. Given my system changes since, I need to audition it again and I plan to once a soon to be delivered component is fully run in.

As an example, I believe @toetapaudio is very happy with the Nenuphars and Nenuphar Minis being driven by his Bakoon amp (Dawid had the same amp on hand but doesn’t mention trying it in his review...which may have been a mistake... based on Robert’s findings).