Cold fusion is slightly superior to cryogenics. |
Uh, noone said it improves all known materials. But it's very well documented that it improves, steel, brass, silver, gold, aluminum, copper and plastics like vinyl, polycarbonate and telfon, you know, things of that nature. |
Mceljo -The process reduces stress in the materials and makes them more homogeneous; thus, a cryo'd brass trumpet sounds better, a cryo'd golf club hits the ball farther, a cryo'd LP, well, it just sounds better. I was one of the first in the US to cryo audio stuff, that was about 15 years ago. |
The cryo process doesn't actually result in compressing the atoms of the material - the atoms compress during the freeze cycle then expand during the thaw cycle. The result is a more homogenous arrangement of the atoms. The stress relief aspect of the cryo process is important since the manufacturing processes of stamping, bending, drawing, etc. is what produces stress and strain in the metals and plastics. And this combination of more homogeneous atomic structure and stress relief produces less vibration, better performance of materials in general - more durable, less britle, greater strength, greater stiffness, etc. |
"Geoffkait - Unless cryo treating changes the physical shape of an LP then it should sound identical."
It doesn't change the physical shape of an LP any more than it changes the color. Cryo treatment doesn't change the physical shape of brass, silver, copper or plastic. It does, however, change the atomic structure of the materials, and that is why the cryo'd LP sounds different, why a cryo'd cable sounds different, why a cryo'd gold ball travels farther, why a cryo'd knife stays sharper longer. Materials, like ideas, need to be examined in greater depth than just looking at the surface.
"The stylus doesn't do anything beyond following the surface of the groove."
Strawman argument, similar to the argument that "bits are bits."
"I don't get it. If cryo helps an LP then there's no limits."
Who said there are limits? You might not be aware that cryogenics has been used for many years by audiophiles and manufacturers to improve the performance of tonearms, cartridges, turntables, CD players, DACs, crossover networks, speakers, cables and interconnects, CDs and LPs. Audio related cryogenics in fact explains, in part, why so many cryogenic labs have sprung up in the last 10 years or so.
"Frozen waffles are not as good as fresh so what's the magic temp that makes everything better?"
There is no "magic temperature" since simple freezing in the the home freezer (obviously not nearly cryogenic temperature) can improve the performance of audio related items to a level quite similar to real cryo treatment. |
The only thing that I can think of would be that a cryo-treated LP would somehow resist vibration better, but generally a more uniform material will resist vibration less.
Bingo! The same with metals, e.g., why a steel rod will vibrate or ring less after cryo. Been there done that.
Your example of A/Bing LPs is only your skeptical imagination at work. Experience can be a great teacher. Been there done that. |
Of course, it should be pointed out those who doubt the whole cryo thing never are the ones to provide measureable data. That would be too, uh, contradictory. :-) |
Well, the best answer to your questions is that the cryo process must work on LPs since they do sound better afterwards. Folks question cryo for wires, CDs, tonearms, electron tubes, CD players and cross-over networks, too. |
Mceljo, of course it's true there is such a thing as the placebo effect, who would disagree with that? But the placebo effect can be rather eliminated as a cause of the effect through careful listening tests. After all, if the placebo effect couldn't be eliminated from testing of any audio component, cable or tweak how would be ever progress in audio? Have you given any consideration to the anti-placebo effect - the placebo effect's ugly sibling - for making naysayers deaf to the effects of some tweaks due to their pre-conceived notions about preposterous sounding tweaks? LOL |
Mceljo - It's certainly understandable that one cannot conceive how Cryo-records could make a difference. I suspect until one actually tries these things for himself, in his own system, with his own ears, the preposterous nature of things like cryo-records, wire and fuse directionality, tiny little bowl resonators, coloring the edge of CDs, crystals, Mpingo discs, demagnetizers, ionizers, extremely low frequency generators, things of that nature, there will be a lot of skepticism to overcome. I guess you could say the same about black holes, the big bang, relativity theory, teleportation and the atomic bomb - the preposterous nature of such things makes it extremely difficult to conceive they're real without proof or demonstration. |
"Well, with over 105,000 casualties at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I think it's pretty safe to say that the atomic bomb is real."
Yes, I suppose that's true. But it's also true the use of the atomic bomb prevented 500, 000 casualties. So, one could say the atomic bomb is a real lifesaver. |
Mceljo, while I appreciate that cryo is very mysterious, not so much for tools and musical instruments and golf balls and rifle barrels, racing engine pistons and valves, and razor blades, for which the benefits appear to be strictly better durability, hardness, stiffness, but for audio related items like CDs, LPs and cables, for which it is not so obvious why there is a performance improvement. I think that it would be relatively easy to demonstrate that dust is not the issue for cryoing LPs, since brand new or thoroughly cleaned LPs would exhibit sonic improvement with cryo. Without a thorough examination of what is going on, and I kind of susoect noone has really done that, not even the cryo labs, in the case of LPs, the sonic improvement most likely is associated with better characteristics of the vinyl making it less subject to vibration coming from the floor and the turntable motor. Better sound might be due to improved stiffness, reduction of stress and strain (that the vinyl is subjected to during the stamping process), and perhaps other reasons that remain unknown.
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It's quite obvious, having done it, that cryoing a steel rod makes it vibrate less, so it's not too much of a stretch that the same is true for vinyl. So I disagree with your premise that a more homogeneous material doesn't vibrate less (for its modes of vibration). If the vinyl, in fact, vibrates less due to extrernal forces, then the stylus will be extracting information from the grooves more accurately. Make sense? |
The cryo'd steel (or aluminum) rod vibrates less when struck with, say, a wrench or other tool, more of a "thunk" than ringing. I actually cryoed all the steel or aluminum rods for one of my products (isolation stand) way back when for just that reason. Is that scientific enough for you? |
"Geoffkait - So you're saying that you're willing to compare the sound of a hammer blow to a piece of metal to what happens when an LP is cryo'd?"
Yes. But I did not say hammer blow.
"If this is the common result of cryo treatment of metal why would people cryo brass instruments?"
To improve the sound and to make the fingering of the valves smoother, to name two reasons.
"A different frequency isn't directly related to the magnitude of the vibration in the material. I'm not saying that you didn't hear a difference, but higher or lower notes could simply sound different in your "listening" room."
Thank you for not saying I didn't hear a difference. LOL
"I'll have to think more about what you describe, but it sounds like you're saying that cryo-treatment made things sound dead. I better not cryo my Nordost Sort Kones or they may turn into isolation rather than coupling devices."
That's kind of a semantic argument and kind of a strawman argument. I didn;t say things sound dead at all. I said the cryo material rings less. Should I assume you like things that ring? BTW cones respond well to cryo treatment since the material will become harder, thus transferring energy more efficiently. It's a materials science thing, right? |
"Geoffkait - I'll admit that I have reached the end of my ability to discuss this topic in a useful way. I'm not a materials engineer or an expert on the cryo process so I can't really get into the specifics of the process and how it relates to specific materials without doing more research than I'm willing to do. I'll wave my white flag and let people make up their own minds."
Mceljo- I am a materials engineer and have considerable experience on the cryo process; I'm actually one of the very first to use cryo for audio applications, going back nearly 15 years. I suspect cryo is just one of those things you have to hear to believe. LOL
"This Friday I should have the opportunity to discuss this topic with some people in the audio industry, specifically turntables, so I'll see what they say. I'm expecting them to say it matters, but doubt I'll get any real explaination."
People in the audio industry? Hmmmm, I'll be on pins and needles to hear what they have to say. LOL
"As a final question, can you explain the specifics of how you compared the before and after to verify that you can hear a difference of a cryo'd LP?"
Is this like a final exam? I thought you weren't going to ask me that. LOL |
"""can you explain the specifics of how you compared the before and after to verify that you can hear a difference of a cryo'd LP?"
Geoffkait, That is a very logical question, and one I'm glad someone finally asked. I'm on pins and needles......"
Yeah, right. Kinda like the question, How can you verify the existence of God? Real logical. |
Why would anyone send me an LP? Hel-looo! Send the LP to a cryo lab. Listen to the cryo'd LP. If you cannot be sure of the results, mistrust your ears, or have poor aural memory, etc. compare the cryo'd LP to the same LP that hasn't been cryo'd. You can even do blind tests, you know, whatever you feel is satisfactory. Make sense? |
I don't think anyone is saying that cryo is a universal process that makes everything better. However, there are by now many audio companies, Meitner, Walker, Jena Labs, Purist Audio, to name a few, who have been using cryo processing for their products, including cables, DACs, CD players, turntables and tonearms, among other things, for many years, so you have to ask yourself, why would a high end outift use cryo if it didn't work? By the way, an alternative to sending audio items like LPs to a cryo lab is freezing them overnight in the home freezer, then let them thaw out slowly in the morning. |
"By the way, an alternative to sending audio items like LPs to a cryo lab is freezing them overnight in the home freezer, then let them thaw out slowly in the morning."
"Really? You're really going to say that a home freezer is similar to a cryo process?"
Yes, I'd say similar, but obviously not identical.
"I'm sure you realize that cryogenic temperatures are in the range of -300 degrees F."
Yes, I realize that. Recall I've been doing cryo for 15 years.
"I don't think the temperature in a home freezer, even a home deep freezer (about 0 degrees F), is even cold in comparison."
Obviously a home freezer is not nearly as cold as a cryo cooler, however it is a lot colder than room temperature. And it's that difference in temperature (70 degrees F) that's important.
"I guess this is why we shouldn't send an LP to you."
I already said don't send LPs to me. LOL
"By the way, unless your kidding consider your credibility lost on this subject with this statement."
Would I kid you? Does this mean I had some credibility with you prior to the home freezer statement? LOL |
"I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but now that you've essentially said that CDs and records that are shipping in the northern states in the winter will sound better than those shipped in the summer. "
Hmmm, I didn't say that but it's an interesting theory. Recall I said the freeze time is overnight - about 12 hours - plus thaw time of 4 hours. So shipping time via air would not be sufficient to produce the desired effect.
"0 degrees F simply isn't low enough to cause a permanent material change."
I beg to disagree. And it's easy to prove. |
It would probably be more instructive to perform the home freezer experiment for oneself than for me to go into the details of what I experienced. After all, my evidence in these matters, even if I were to go into excrutiating detail, would be anecdotal. Like a lot of things in this hobby there's no substitute for trying things at home, on a system one is familiar with and with recordings one is familiar with. Try the overnight freezer thing with a few CDs or even LPs and let me know what you think. |
"Mceljo said: "Iso - Can you cryo them or should I just put them in the fridge when they arrive? What's the break in period on them?"
That's actually an excellent question since cryo'd materials require about a week or more to recover from thermal shock. This explains why some audiophiles jump the gun and report the cryo sounds worse when they audition the cryo'd item as soon as they receive it. Another advantage to the home freezer technique is there isn't much thermal shock, so you can dispense with the break-in period. |
Of course I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that an experienced listener, one who knows what he's listening to, should be able to distinguish sound that is better, worse or the same. How else would he progress in this hobby?
A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke
If at first you don't succeed try the outfield. - Anonymous |
"While I was there I inquired about cryo-treatment of records with a local Focal rep and a highly respected amplifier engineer/designer that was there. The response was in the range of head scratching/shaking. Neither seemed to be aware of the concept which was interesting since they were on hand for the U.S. debut of the Clear Audio Master Innovation turntable. I would expect the amplifier guy to be at the leading edge of LP technology."
Just as I predicted. At least milk didn't squirt out of their noses, right? :-)
"Everything is relative." - old audiophile axiom |
As I predicted, the "LP gurus" had no idea what you were talking about.
"If I were forced to make a prediction I would have guessed the opposite. Go figure." Oh, it figures. :-) |
