Counterpoint SA-5000 or First Sound Presence Pre

run from counterpoint....unless you are sadistic and enjoy pain.

they are very, very unrelaible. despite the new company and serivce, no one in san diego(local town) will carry the line.

the companies reputation of building unrelaible gear is founded and well documented.

i would go with the first sound, the owner of the company is true gentleman and freely offers time and advice wether the units were bought new or used.

another very nice pre is the pse hl-1. dean makes a great pre and they require only 2 7308/6922 tubes. they are very rare to come by and a signature upgrade is suppose to take the unit to the $8k range class ( i'll let you know when the upgrade is done).

best regards,

mike

just as heads up reguarding counterpoint/ alta vista.

mike elliott went to both shops in san diego with their new amps for them to audition (fact). i would speculate ( which means "in my opinion" the reason alta vista doesnt sell to dealers is because they cant- they have pissed off alot of people. alot of established dealers that had once carried the line will not carry the line again due to previous experience. no one has to get kicked in the groin twice to find out that it hurts.

Japan and the far east has been the biggest customer for counterpoint ( you can confirm this with mike e). i dont know if this is true for alta vista.

Mike Elliott and his wife are very nice people- i handled their printing at precision litho located in vista before the company closed (its to bad they didnt pay their printing bill - i picked up that up for them. they went through a very rough time. they had a beautiful business / manufacturing facility and had lost everything) (fact)

in regards to reliabilty- i dont know how relaible the new gear is but the old gear is unreliable and has a reputation as such on all their own and not my my opinion.

ask any shop that used to carry their gear. i like their pre's- the sa-5000 is still a great pre (i was considering to pick one up for its phono stage- but opted for audible illusions instead) the gear is to unrelaible and costly to be repaired.

back in the early 90's i started the san diego music society ( we meet at stereo ulimited, bruce is a true gentleman). when Von Schweikert was demoing his Continetial speakers(division of counterpoint) with counterpoint gear- both sa-220's went up in smoke. every audiophile laughed about it, it was considered "typical for counterpoint".

the only shop that carried counterpoint was music by the sea (steve mccormack ala mod squad) till it closed. both stereo unlimited and stereo by design stopped carrying the line due to relaiblilty issues(fact).

my personal opinion is the world is waiting for a relaible hybrid amp and pre-amp that is reasonably priced.

that could combine fets and tubes to bring the best strengths of each forward.

the audio research classic series was the first to do this ( the arc ls-2b, classic 60 etc.). counterpoints gear also did it, they were ahead of their time, but the counerpoint designs were unrelaible. if you have one that works and havent had any problems with it, then i would say you are lucky.

with any high preformance equipment- wether car or audio there is maintaince involved. ask any porsche, bmw, ferrrai owner. the same applies to audio. most tube gear will require service....it is a fact. that is the price you pay for performance ( consider a infiniti to a bmw... both are nice but the infinti will be more relaible while the bmw will offer more performance and require more maintiance - that is the "cost of ownership"

the counterpoint is high performance but requires a more repairs than the arc classic series. that is one of the reasons the arc clsssic still commands top dollar. despite its age, the stuff lasts and sounds good. even by todays standards ( i still like the arc classic 60)

i wish someone could introduce a reliable and reasonably priced hybrid to pick up where the arc classic series and counterpoint left off.

hey audio designers/endgineers.... is anyone up to it ?
or is 2 channel considered a dead market ?

my 2 cents...

best regards,

mike

i didnt expect the tread to go this way. maybe because i live in san diego and know the background with counterpoint and the owners.

dont get me wrong, the 5000 is a nice preamp. HOWEVER, counterpoints relaiblity as a whole isnt that great. if you have a working one that hasnt gone south, then you are very fortunate.

i have no hard feelings toward mike and his wife. they are very nice people and what happened to them is very, very unfortunate. i would not want to wish that on my worst enemy.

btw, what happened with them is they had alot of $$$$ manufacturing gear that wasnt being used( they tried to be like arc and do everything in house- from metal to silkscreening).

i was looking at a First sound presence last year that had a damaged face plate. i contacted the company ( emanualle) and he offered to replace the face plate (for free!!!) and update the volume pot and check the tubes for a minimal charge...wow....i was impressed.

though i didnt win the pre, the owner was very personable and cared about his product wether new or used..that stuck with me. if first sound came out with a remote pre....i would be interested. btw, mike e. is the same way - very cordial and personable (though his repairs are a little more).

as for myself i use a pse hl-1 hybrid pre. the owner is true gentleman (dean k.) and always willing to discuss his products and upgradeabililty of them ( very reliable gear and upgrades are reasonabley priced).

btw, i use a audible illusions IID for a phono stage. it sounds pretty good and is reliable. if i didnt have the hl-1 then i would go with the ai m3 ( needs a remote imo)

i have alot of respect for AI, they have been around a long time and have built world class product for close to 25 plus years. that says alot in my book.

best regards,

mike

Mknowles16... whatever..

you can discard my information regarding the reliablity of counterpoint...you would have to blind to ignore it.

it is on the current alta vista site and all over audiogon and asylum.

dont get me wrong it is great sounding gear when it works, but there is a major relaiblity issue and that is obvious.

if you cant recognize that, then you need to question your intellectul honesty or lack thereof

regarding the print bill. why dont you ask mike e. about the situation ? he got off, i had other jobs in the shop that paid for it. precsion litho is the second largest printer in san diego, things like this do happen.

the owner of precison litho ( dennis rampee wrote it off).when a business goes bankrupt (chapter 7), there is nothing that can be done. the print shop bill was small compared to the other debt.as far mike e. as a friend, that may be streching it a bit thin. a business acquintance would be better.

i was a business acquaintance with mark baker and albert von schkvert when he was with counterpoint. how they handled albert and replaced him with pat mcguinney ( meadowlark) is a whole different story and none of my business.

rather than attack the person why dont you attack the discussion ?

if you stand on your soap box and say counterpoint is know for reliable gear... then king....you are not wearing any clothes and the only person that doesent see it, is you.

mike

Mknowles16.is that the best you can come up with ?

you should read Bemopti123 post...and i would suggest putting some clothes on before you catch cold.

mike

S23chang i think you are lucky to not have repairs required.

however you may want to reconsider what you said.... "you can only experience the equipment's capability or reliability by owning one "

i am of the belief that learning by other peoples mistakes and experiences ( as well as people learn by mine) is a very valuable tool.

to learn only by your own experinece and not others is very short sighted and offers a narrow learing experince ( i dont need to go through chemotherapy to know how painful the treatment is)

my opinion of relaiblity is based upon what i have seen with my eyes ( amps going up in smoke with a really easy load)

hear from relaible sources- dealers that i have known 20 plus years and shoot straight and are very much tube gear experts ( 30 plus years )who wont carry their gear

and...

other audiophiles who have owned the gear and attest to the unrelaiblity... ( this is before audiogon and the web).

what really surprises me is when one goes to the alta vista audiowebsite and the designer admits about design flaws with some of the pieces and offer repairs for it......

on the flip side,i have heard alot of counterpoint gear in the 90's ( steve mccormack shop had it) and it did sound very,very, good (imo, the 5000 is a awesome pre, even by todays standards)

but the relability / quality control is a real issue with the gear. i would go as far to say that you are in the minority with your experience with counterpoint.

good listening,

mike

so am i :)))) oi vay....