Counterpoint SA-5000 or First Sound Presence Pre

I agree that system integration plays a big role in anyone's preference, however with Bigkidz listed system, I'd assume that the First Sound would be a better choice for him than the SA-5000 and that the Tube Research GTP-3 or GTP-4 would be even better.

I hope that my sharing my first hand experience with the SA-5000 didn't upset you. It's difficult somethimes to share experiences without stepping hard on someone else's toe. This was not my intent. My Counterpoint had reliability issues and it was too dark, recessed, slow, lacked dynamics (micro and macro) and lacked the detail for me in my system. This is not to say that it may not match perfectly for someone else in someone else's system, or that anyone else's Counterpoint has reliability issues. Maybe mine was built late Friday afternoon?

I'd listened to the three pre-amps you'd mentioned, S23Chang, and even considered the CAT until I heard the TRL GTP-3. In my system, there was no comparison. To me, the Tube Research IS in another league all of its own. YMMV, (Your Mileage May Vary).

Having owned an SA-5000 in the past and having compared it to one of the earlier First Sound Presence models, I can tell you that the First Sound IS in another league altogether. The Presence had better dynamics, resolution, imaging, and sounded so much more natural; more at ease. The Presence did have NOS 6DJ8's in it, Amperex Gold pin/D getter, if memeory serves me. I can't remember which tubes I'd had at the time in my Counterpoint. I think Gold pin Amperex's.

My SA-5000 saw the shop a few times before I'd owned it and once in the brief time I'd owned it. I horse traded the Counterpoint off years back, demo'ed a Tube Research GTP-3 and bought it.

If you are limited to chose between only the SA-5000 or the First Sound, definitelly listen to the First Sound. If you are not limited to those units only, check out the Tube Research. The prices of the TRL GTP-3 and the FS Presence are pretty close to each other.

I don't think that Mike Singer, nor anyone else here is trying to unjustly make claims about Counterpoints reliability just to increase the value of their gear. I don't see how that is possible either.

It is common knowledge that Counterpoint gear was very unreliable. The word within the industry was that Mike Elliot was losing distributors and dealers due to reliabilty problems and that units arrived to dealers broken. Unfortunately, they went out of business. Strong companies do not lose the banks support, as suggested at the new web-site. Strong companies do not leave print shops and suppliers with unpaid bills.

S23chang:

I'm terribly sorry if sharing my experience has offended you, it wasn't meant to. I've had 3 pieces of Counterpoint gear, all taken in on horse-trades, all 3 ran for less than a month before requiring service. In my experience, Counterpoint had reliability issues. I had to pay the price of repairing all 3 units, then sold them at a loss.

In my opinion it was product failure, a reliability problem, that led to Counterpoints demise. Don't believe it? Do a search on any audiophile BBS for "Counterpoint + reliability". I'll bet that there are less satisfied customers than you realize.

Or, better yet, how about we start a new thread both here and at Audio Asylum asking folks to share their "Counterpoint Experience" with us? I may be wrong. Maybe a new thread would settle this?

You own a SA-5000 that hasn't failed you yet. Consider yourself lucky. Many (like myself) weren't so lucky ...