Coltrane. Can we talk?

Hi Jay. I did not mean to put fuel on the fire here; this is a great thread, and I thank Kublakhan for starting it. Of course, we are all entitled to our opinions, and I don't begrudge you for having your own about 'Trane; even if I don't agree with them. Probably, if you would have just stated that while you can appreciate his genius, he is not your favorite, I would have declined to comment. But you also implied some expert knowledge with the termonology you used (equidistant tonal centers, etc...) to justify your position, and because of that, well, I guess I got a bit wound up. Yes, I am a musician, and yes, big surprise, I'm play jazz. I consider myself very well schooled; I'm currently working on my DMA in composition. But oddly, I don't care much for big complex words and theories when it comes to describing art, at least not most of the time. You see, I've always felt that theories (like the 2 & 4 tonal system, Lydian Chromatic, etc...) are ONLY applicable if the artist is actually known to have UTILIZED the theories while creating; at the very least there should be some documented proof that the artist studied the theoretical material at some point in time, or that he/she developed musical concepts that were the basis for creation. I guess a couple of examples of "theory in practice" might be Schoenbergs 12 tone system, and Charlie Parkers use of extended chords as a basis for improvisation. In both these instances (and there are others) the artist CLEARLY, by there own admission, had a discovery that led them to what they felt was a higher level of self expression. So, it would be correct, both musically and theoretically speaking, to analize the music of Schoenberg with respect to his 12 tone method of composition; at least the pieces of music which were spawned by this theory, that is. And it would also be correct to examine Charlie Parkers improvisations with respect to his idea of "extending the chords"....But there are many instances where theory fails miserably, and in the end, the explaination actually detracts from the art, and our understanding of how the artist opperated. I feel that the "theories" which have been developed to help describe and define the art of John Coltrane are an example of the latter. Having said that, I also feel that the only theory which comes acceptably close to being able to describe the method in which 'Trane opperated is the Lydian Chromatic Concept, which makes sense, since it is common knowledge that JC was a believer in the system, and studied it in his youth. But like most theories, even the LCCOTO fails to fully explain what 'Trane was up too; no theory can expalin the spirit of a man who was as moved as JC was to expaned the music in such a deep way. But I digress. I guess I'm just really trying to explain why I got so fiesty, and appologize for doing so. If you're interested in learning more about why most musical theories fail, and if you've ever wondered why most "theories" never seems to help students of music actually create, there is a wonderful book published by Dover titled "The Great Composer As Teacher And Student" by Alfred Mann. I guess the most interesting point the book makes is that neither Bach nor Mozart would have had any understanding of even the TERM music theory. They only understood musical practices, and it is those very practices which help us to better understand their art, not some very wordy theory created my an intellectual high-brow 100 years or more after their death. If you examine the manuscript books of the students of Bach, Mozart, and even Beethoven, there is no text, only music notation. No wordy theories needed, just practical examples of music. Maybe I should take their lead, as this post is already too wordy for most, including me. So let me just say once more that I apologize to all if I got fired up, and if I rambled. But it's all for the love of music. BTW, Coltrane did not really "expand" anything harmonically, at least not in a fundamental way; he did not create a unique system for building harmonies. His music, and harmonies, are all still based on the western diatonic system, and are mostly tertian. But he did contribute greatly to the vocabulary of that western diatonic system, and that is not any less important. Schoenberg is probably the only artist this century that actually "expanded" harmony. Regards. Robert.

Hi Robert,
Sorry we got off on the wrong foot. I think you and I are debating a "Clintonism", i.e. it depends what you mean by "expand"....
Yes of course Trane's "music and harmonies are still based on the western diatonic sysyem, and are mostly tertian." By "expanding" harmony I did not mean to define the word as introducing a very different Fundamental system, ala Scheonberg, whom I will not make the mistake of 'dissing',lol,.. although.. now that you mention it- I'm more of a Berg man- to my ears, Berg better utilized and had a better command of the 12 tone bag, seemed like he breathed more emotion into it...
But, going along with your definition of the word, I'd include Messiaen in there too, and I'm sure there are others I'm not thinking of and many I'm not aware of. Ive's might deserve a footnote- if not for his methods, maybe for the audible results...(sheesh). But as far as I'm concerned, western harmony has been 'expanding' for over four centuries.
Of course the 'theory' always comes in hindsight, whether in consideration of Baroque or Bebop vocabularies & methods, and yes that theory is always lacking, almost a two dimensional shadow of the truth, with holes in it to boot...But it does serve a small purpose IMO primarily in generalizing for immitation & assimilation's sake as a part of formative, 'ingestive' periods in the artist's development. But I, like you, don't care much for it,or at least know it's place in the scheme of true art & the creative proccess and 'innovation's' sake. I would also say that the compositions of Wayne Shorter, or the playing of Dewey Redman, (to stay with the tenor thing here) have expanded western harmony. Or the beauty of Bartok's compositions-mmmmm to name a couple off the top of my head. Also I have no debate against the fact that theories fall short, most definitely. In sum, yes, Coltrane "did contribute greatly to the vocabulary of the western diatonic system", i.e. he expanded it. And I still submit that one of his greatest contributions was the way he moved between tonal centers, which incidentally I do understand and utilize in my playing and writing. Another thing you & I have in common, is I also don't like to get bogged down too often in this sort of rambling & cerebral blah blah blah. It turns out I'm a musician as well. So where are you in school? Who are you studying with?

Hi Jay. Everything you state makes sense. It turns out that we have more in common than at first one might have expected. I'm so glad to see that there are other musicians surfing this site. What do you play? I am a guitarist. Right now I am working on my DMA at City University of New York; I study compositon with Edgar Granna and I am currently studying guitar with Steve Khan, although in the past I have studied with Charlie Banacos, John Scofield, and George Russell too. But my bigest influence as a musician has been from a little known composer named Roy Nitzberg; he really helped take the intelectual "blah, blah, blah" out of my thinking, and my playing. BTW, while I REALLY love 'Trane (big surprise) he is not my current favorite; that honor goes to (pianist) Bill Evans. Keep the faith. And thanks again Kublakhan for putting the focus where it belongs; on the music. Regards, Robert.

Robert,
Ah, it really is a small world after all. Do you know Scott Reeves at school? we used to teach together at the University of Maine. He was the head of the jazz dept., my boss- a nice guy and good player. There were quite a few great Maine musicians who moved to NY, Ben Street comes to mind. You also may know my cousin, another bass player, Chris Dahlgren, who lives in Brooklyn and plays around town with some good players, sometimes in Maria Schneider's band among others. Anyway, after I left my teaching position, I came to the Virgin Islands, where I live and play jazz, guitar... I've been strictly playing for three years down here. (Which is why I have time to surf the net during the days)... It's nice, pretty lucrative, but lonely. I have a solo gig at the Ritz Carlton, just got home from work. I'm out there 3 nights a week, and also do private functions for corporate groups here on vacation/incentive trips. I like to get up to NY or Boston a few times a year for my own sanity, and may move back soon, or go to grad school in NY or back to Boston at Boston Conservatory. Sounds like you were in Boston as well. I guess I really should send you a cd as you suggested, as long as you don't compare me against any monsters! Jay

I just love you Coltrane guys. I am working on him but haven't arrived as of yet but I won't give up. Same with Schoenberg. I just haven't "gotten it"....yet.