Coaxials - Reality vs. Experience?

To add clarity, concentric is a subset of coaxial. In other words, all concentric drivers are coaxial but not all coaxial drivers are concentric. @erik_squires Pardon the presumption; you are probably referencing most designs intended for the hifi home user, of which most (if not all) are concentric.

I heard a few designs at audio shows as well as listened critically (TAD micro)  while evaluating two amplifiers for purchase. Having experienced music through quality concentrics, my opinion is that a quality design well executed in all parameters sounds great.......concentric drivers or not. The theoretical advantages of concentric drivers notwithstanding, there are probably a number of other design variables that bear more weight (at this point) on how a loudspeaker "sounds" to each person.

@headphonedreams great call on the Cabasse. A truly remarkable system (fully active, dsp)! Heard it at AXPONA. Suggest for anyone mildly interested in audio engineering marvels/curiosities/design to audition these. You will probably be stunned (as I was) by the quality and quantity of sound from these relatively modest sized orbs. May or may not be your cup of tea, but impressive none the less.

@erik_squires The main design objective/benefit of a D'Appolito array is to mimic a point source. Benefits that inherently follow are higher power handling (plays louder) and lessening of the potential impact of floor and ceiling reflections due to two drivers producing the same frequency range. The design doesn't actually reduce vertical dispersion, just potentially helps alleviate some negative interaction of the floor and ceiling. Before the D'Appolito array the only way to mimic a point source was to use a dual concentric driver (with its attendant pros and cons).

One downside of the D'Appolito array is the tighter vertical listening window created by the three drivers (five drivers in my fully active 3-way design)(seven drivers in the Duntech Sovereign). It just so happens that the symmetrical drivers couple optimally at a certain distance........which you are calling "narrow vertical dispersion" and as a "benefit" It is not a benefit, but a downside. There is no free lunch, each design has its pros and cons. You get the benefits of that narrow window of optimal coupling when in the sweet spot, and the downside of potentially less coherent sound outside of the sweet spot (in reality...not so terrible).

Unfortunately, we can't give full respect to the details in this short response form. 

Please explain "off plane axis listening".

OOPS. After reading the previous few posts. I should make a correction. I know you are a pretty sharp guy!

@mulveling I have no problem with the assist. I respect your thoughtful/experience based opinions. I am referencing the majority of coaxials on the market (home hifi not the old Jensen co/tri-axials of yore). Examples, as have been mentioned by others/myself, Tannoy, Kef, TAD, MOFI's new two way (Sourcepoint 10), diy drivers (Eminence, Seas, SB acoucoustcs, B&C, BMS.........). Of course, some of these models are not exclusively concentric (mid/hi, low-mid/hi), but are aumented with low frequency drivers. 

@herbreichert You communicate/resonate fabulously with the inner artist in all of us that think we have an inner artist! Appreciate your style. As Mulveling mentioned, looking directly at the driver in question (as JA would perform an on axis measurement of MOFI's Sourcepoint 10); the attempt by most of these (passive) designs is to time align the acoustic centers (dual concentric) of these coaxials to best approximate a point source How accurate each designer is at this is up to measurements. If the sound/presentation is "good" is up to personal preference. Of course, the drivers don't have to be concentric, but still coaxial and the time alignment adjusted via dsp (fully active in speaker solution or external with a DEQX, for example........each with its own pros and cons).

Be happy to try and clear any waters I may have muddied.

Herb, you're the pro, I am just a guy with some electronics and a room full of drivers.

@erik_squires You speak in generalities or specifics when each suits you, not when it suits the details of the discussion. Tell me about the real world D'Appolito arrays you have deigned/built/tested and formed opinions on through listening to at your home. Or for that matter, listened to out in the wild. Your experiential observations of point source style speakers vs any two way D'Appolito array speaker? Crickets?

You LITERALY can't have a point source! A point source is an abstraction, it doesn't exist in reality. We use the idea of a point source to model and make calculations that can help guide a particular design. The theoretical pros and cons (and the relative importance of each) of any particular design will play out once you select drivers, select crossover type (active/passive), create a pile of sawdust, twist a screwdriver, skin some knuckles, measure, listen, adjust, rinse and repeat. The devil is in the details (apology for the hackneyed phrase).

Erik, thank you for the reading suggestions, but the design literature I read pre internet has served me and my ears quite well. There are as many opinions as keyboards out there, each telling you which benefit they champion on whatever design. There is no inherently "good" thing about narrow vertical dispersion unless your use case for some reason necessitates it. (Also, I believe you interchanged vertical/horizontal in your two previous posts). One doesn't go into a store and the audio clerk says " this speaker has narrow vertical dispersion, so it's the BEST you can buy!"

For gigs....If you had a two-way MT bookshelf (with its unique dispersion pattern) and create a quick and dirty D'Appolito array lengthening the baffle and symmetrically placing a matching M above the T creating a MTM (appropriately altering the crossover) your main gains you put your benjamins down for are: Mimicking point source for that perceived presentation, Higher power handling (louder, but at the expense of lower impedance), Lower midrange/woofer distortion due to less cone movement, lesser impact of ceiling/floor interaction (in my experience....meh)

Erik, disagree as vociferously as you like..........now go make some sawdust and enjoy some righteous tunes!

Well wait.......... you still haven't explained "off-plane axis listening". (Tasty geometry salad)😋.

I listen only in the "sweet" spot.....where all the magic happens! 

(There are probably numerous errors above, not having typed this much since my last term paper. Retractions, denials, apologies to follow. Good night gentlemen/gentlewomen/gentlefluids, my wife is yelling at me to get my fingers the frick away from the keyboard.

I managed to wrestle the keyboard from my wife😅. @herbreichert C'mon, Herb none of this false modesty! You know we know you're a pretty sharp guy! I Know old wisdom says not to let on how smart one really is 😉.

Can we get some initial impressions of the Heretic? We can keep a secret until the review. 

You must be totally confused by one of the bullet points on their site:

                   POINT SOURCE CO-AXIAL TRANSDUCERS

"All sounds originate from a single point in space. No transducers all over the place, yielding fuzzy, phasy music reproduction. Excellent soundstage, precise location of instruments and coherency."

Love this hobby.

Truly appreciate you, Herb!

tomcy6  +1