Class D = Trash?


So, I'm on my second class D amp. The first one, a Teac AI-301DA which claimed to use an ICE module, was unlistenable trash. I burned it in for a few weeks, it just couldn't perform, so I sent it back. Following that, I tried the new Emotiva A-300 (class A/B). It was significantly better, but lacking in too many ways for my tastes. So I changed gears, got an 845 SET from China -- and it was an immediate and massive improvement.

So, before I went further down the SET road, I wanted to try a better class D product using a modern class D module. I settled on the D-Sonic M3-800S with the Pascal module and custom input stage. I read from reviews that these things like to have big cables, so I picked up an eBay 8 gauge power cable (Maze Audio, el-cheapo Oyaide copy plugs, braided 4-wire cable) to go along with it.

Mid-range GONE.
Soundstage depth CRUSHED.
Euphonics DISAPPEARED.

Yes, resolution went up. Driver control went up, allowing me to play compressed rock/pop and orchestra with the speakers being able to render it all. But enjoyment in the sound is basically gone. Using my best power cable (LessLoss Original) improved performance, but didn't fundamentally change the amp's nature. I ran back to my headphones (Focal Utopias) to detox my ear canals.

So, how long does a class D need to burn-in? I want to give it a fair shake before writing the technology off forever. 
madavid0

Showing 8 responses by h2oaudio

"What I can say with confidence is that an analog power supply in class D does give you that full sound that class a/b amps posses."

phd,  I could'n agree more, but I would add AND THEN SOME...Or a lot more :-).

Disclosure: I am a manufacturer using Icepower modules with Analog Power Supply.

Henry
Tim, Thank you.

I think a bit more valid conclusion as to which type of power supply is better is to have the same amp with SMPS and then the same amp with analog power supply given EVERYTHING else is equal. I emphasize everything is because as you would agree a front end and/or a preamp or even speaker wire can influence the sound, for better or worse. First, let me clarify that there are two fundamental differences between the two type of power supplies we are discussing here.  One being the SMPS and the other is the traditional analog power supply and that is obvious. But another big difference which is also worth mentioning is the SMPS type is being regulated...Meaning that the output voltage is held constant as long as current draw from the load (the amp) is within the supply's design capability.  And that is very desirable in audio power amplifier design or anything electronic for that matter.   However, regulated analog power supply for high power amplifier is very expensive to design just from the standpoint of hardware involve.  This is the very reason why regulated analog power supply is mostly done in preamplifier circuit since power involve is not huge, compared to Power amplifier.  In fact, 99.9% of power amplifier out on the market have been designed using an unregulated analog power supply, at least for the output stage. A fewer design may have a regulated analog power supply for the input and maybe a driver stage, but power supply for the output stage still is unregulated.  Stable voltage supply rail is highly desirable since changing voltage supply rail can change biasing current in conventional discrete transistor design especially.  Also, change or reduced in voltage supply will also limit how far the signal can swing, after all the amplified signal can only swing as far as the available supply voltage rail, and as  a result power is reduced.  Though the first effect (changing voltage under dynamic condition) is much more detrimental than the secondary effect of reduced power IMHO.  Due to those effects mentioned the result will turn for the worst in the final sound through the system. This is the fundamental reason (not the only reason of course) why most power amplifier can sound quite good at low volume but falls apart when pushing hard at high listening level, and especially into a difficult speaker load, because an unregulated power supply will sag (drop in voltage level) under heavy current demand from the load. While the analog power supply we are discussing here is not regulated, though it can be.  From my experience, an regulated analog power supply is always better than an unregulated analog power supply, again given everything else is equal. Then again, there used to be a debate( isn't it always with audio :-)) that an unregulated analog power supply can actually sound better than a regulated one.  Note that so far I have made a differentiation between a regulated and an unregulated ANALOG power supplies and not SMPS.  SMPS by design is always regulated.  Please note also that so far I have only mentioned power supply topology but in regard only to conventional discrete transistor design as in typical Class A and Class A/B design and not with PWM switching amplifier.  As mentioned above I preferred a regulated analog power supply for conventional discrete transistors design, simply because in class A/B and especially class A, always draw current constant current, and can be lots of it if it is class A or a heavily biased class AB. The reason is simply that if the supply is not regulated, the voltage rails will sag significantly resulted in lots of ripple on the DC rails.  And the end results will end up with is noise, hiss and hum.  And this is only under static condition (no input signal so no amplification), and will get worse under heavy dynamic condition where heavy current demand is asked for.  And that is very true for class A/B power amplifier.  But what we are talking about here is switching amplifier.  There is no constant current being drawn here as in the case with conventional amplifier. Well, there is but very tiny amount of current being drawn. The amp only draws current when there is signal.  But more importantly when it does draw current, but unlike conventional design, the transistor does not spending so much time in the linear region because the output stage acts like a very (make it extreme) fast switch.  And therefore, there is not much power dissipation as heat is being generated.  So this is the very reason why it runs so cool and efficient as we all know about class D amps.  So for Class D I really think the important thing is to be able to deliver huge amount of current but FAST and as fast as you can and not so much of being regulated or unregulated.  Though I got to admit that my intuition tells me from experience that a regulated analog power supply (mind you) even for the output stage would give a better result. I don't know since I have not tried it neither with SMPS nor regulated analog power supply, with class D that is. I have tried it with conventional design and for sure regulated supply wins hand down. There is something about switch mode power supply which I need to investigate further.

OMG, I can't believe I went this far and still have not answer Tim's question :-).... So without dwelling into too much of all of the technical jargon, the short answer is YES!!! at least what I have tried so far with class D.  I apologize for the post being too long, and in all honesty, this is the very reason why I decide not to anticipate with most of the discussions through the years as this took me hours to compose something like this as I am not a very good writer.  Though I found most of the discussion very interesting to say the least.

There is one confession which I need to make and that is coming from conventional strictly pure class A design through the years, I always chuckle and LMAO at time when I read debate where a piece of wire would make a difference in the final sound.  Well, I have stopped laughing ever since dealing with Class D.  Boy, talk about temper.  Just a simple bypass cap, which used to make tiny (if at all) difference in sound with conventional design, but with class D? It can sound heavenly or like trash.  The same goes for type of rectifier being used, and the wire and ....
 And for the record, the H2O has regulated analog power supply for the front end and unregulated power supply (and huge at that) for the output switching stage.  Also, I have finally manage to get a pair of the NCore 400 modules and have implemented them with a similar power supply which I have implemented for the H2O using Icepower module. I have been listening to the Ncore and have been rotate the Icepower in and out from time to time for comparison for the last month or so. Now what I need is to have is an NCore with switching mode power supply which design by hypex for real comparison.  Hopefully I would have a better insights on the difference in sound.

Henry

Erik,

I believe Krell FPB does not have a fully regulated power supply from front to back.  The KRS series does and maybe the Krell master reference as well.  Though to my belief that power supply is one fundamental aspect of amplifier design, but it is only one of the many aspects which make the amp sounds good such as topology and devices being used, implementation to name a few. But I digress since we are talking about class D so let us switch (pun intended) back to class D channel shall we?
Todd, Thank you.  But I admit my knowledge is very limited actually compared to some of the GODS of amplifier designers such as Nelson Pass, John Curl and quite a few other designers.  I am a rookie compare to these amplifier designers.  I just know enough to make the amp sounds halfway decent by lots of experimentation.

I sincerely hope I did not offend anyone with some of the statements I made.  Please remember that my opinion is just that...one opinion.  It is just happen that I am a manufacturer.  And more importantly, what I referred to as "BETTER"  is only in the context within my system and others system which I heard, and furthermore to my ears and my ears only.  I do believe lots of members on this board have been around long enough to know, that there was not, is not and will never be one absolute.  It will always depend on the system as whole and more importantly listener's preferences, type of music, room acoustic and the list goes on.  And to answer the OP's questions.  The answer is NO.  Far from trash actually.  Then again, just like what I just mentioned above.  It depend to whom are we asking?  So the correct answer I believe is YES AND NO :-).

Henry
Hi Tim, Thanks

I apologize for what I wrote was not very clear. So let me rephrase and make it a bit more clear. You’re right that there is not a direct relationship between good bass and an analog power supply, which makes sense, after all power supply is but one of the many fundamental aspects of any amplifier design. Great sounding power amplifiers requires many aspects of the design, and not just the power supply. What I can say from what I have implemented and heard is that an unregulated analog power supply seem to always sound better than those with SMPS. And this is strictly in the context of class D Icepower. As indicated, I have implemented and listened to the NCore 400 modules with an analog power supply of my own design, but cannot compare to any Ncore (400 or otherwise) modules implemented with SMPS and so therefore cannot make any evaluation as compare to the Ncore 400 modules with my own an analog power supply. I have requested to buy sample of Ncore 1200 from Hypex to test as I am a manufacturer and have been declined by Hypex. It seems as though Hypex wants to supply to only those manufacturers with reputable brand names, sort of exclusive club if you know what I mean, since H2O is a no body apparently, and that is my feeling. My goal is obviously to find the best technology which sounds good to high-end community. No matter though, from what I have implemented and heard, especially with Icepower, there is absolutely nothing to fear, at least from my point view.

Henry
Tim,

I wanted to add that though I have not have a chance to listen to one yet! But I believe the D-sonic amp is an great amp from what I have read.  And ice on the cake is the price especially.

Henry
Hi Tim,

Thank you very much for your understanding the tip on the Abletec power amp modules.  Unfortunately, I think all modules being offered by Abletec has built-in SMPS and there is not really a way to bypass/separate the SMPS from the amp section.  Even if that is possible, it would not be practical and/or economical.  This is the very reason I have gravitated toward icepower and Ncore so far, as these can be used with power supply of my own design.

I am aware of products being offered by Nord from England.  I believe, and I maybe wrong on this, that there is a misconception about the input buffer in most instances, in that it is choice rather than a necessity.  In reality, I believe it is a necessity first and foremost since most of these amp modules, may have a very low input impedance, in fact even lower than in the case of icepower 8 kohms in most modules, which is very low compared to the industry's standard.  One example would be in the Abletec's case, where if the module is being implement as is, its intrinsic input impedance is less than 2 kohms which is so tough drive properly for any preamp, except a very few preamps, and one being my Fire Preamp.

From what I have heard with the Ncore400, realizing that it is not the Ncore1200 which may sound completely different, Still, I believe that the Ncore technology is most appropriated to be mated with a tube preamp, and maybe preferably, a non-negative feedback design for best result, at least to my ears and in my system.  Thanks

Henry

Tim,

"Hi Ho".  After I realized how goofy that sounded, I told him his  new American name would be "Henry" .  LOL! That is very funny. 

Speaking of which there are a pair of the Nord monoblocks NC500 for sale right now on Agon. Fund is very limited right now, otherwise I would pull the trigger on this just to find out how it sounds compare to the NC400 that I have. Thanks again for reading all of my rambling.

Henry