And -- needless to say -- mediocrity in art is very much like greatness, quite alive and well. |
Hi JW, you forgot to mention the brand/model of your class D amp. |
Thank you larryi, the only larger class D monoblocks Rowland makes are the model 301. Here are the dymensions:
10.6" x 15.5" x 18.3". Weight is 80Lbs each.
One probs they have is to have a relatively low damping factor of only 60, which is likely to create problems on low impedance speakers. Model 312 has damping factor of 1000 instead.
Does this size sound right. . . not exactly huge. . . actually less than typical full size amps. They are rather narrower than the typical amps. Cost is $30K for the pair. I have not heard them so I can't comment on their sound. JRDG makes much more compact models like the 501 and 201. The little ones are built to a price point and are not in the same league as the 312. I wish I have heard more switching amps than I have. For the moment my favs are the 312 and the Spectron Musician 3 Signature. It is also worth pointing out that I heard only a very unbroken Spectron this far on a system that had a few other challenges. As such I can't make a real comparison with 312. . . but what I heard was extremely PROMISING and is DEFINITELY worth further serious auditioning. |
Ralph. . . I typically dispense with visual frivolities [chuckles!] does that make me a 'purer' kind of audiophile who is inherently better capable of grokking the ineffability of true sonic beauty? But here's the rub, some fellow audiogoners that start from my very same sensorial premises, end up with very different equipment choices
"Ultimately if an amp is sounding really right, it should sound like any other amp that is also sounding really right, shouldn't it?"
I can't see why the above should be the case. . . there are nearly infinite forms that a beautiful sound can take. Even after excluding extra musical consideration, our individual personal experience often causes us to make subtly different value judgements, equally valid in their own right. . . or invalid, if you so prefer. If what you posit were correct, not only all truly top flight amps should sound alike, regardless of underlying technology, but a Steinway piano should sound exactly like a Bosendorfer, a Stradivari should be indistinguishable from a Guarneri, Anne-Sophie Mutter should play exactly like Salvatore Accardo, and a Karajan performance should be carefully patterned on Toscanini. In other words, yes, greatness exists. . . but True Truth in art? I doubt it. |
That's interesting MRT. . . roaming the halls and suites at RMAF I was actually dismaied by how so many tube designs at all price points were trying to out-solid-state solid state designers. . . and succeeding admirably, tizziness (additive flaw presumably) and vanishing harmonic structure (subtractive flaw I presume) included. The difference apparently is that. . . if such flaws are heard on classic solid state or switching technology--which I did hear in spades as well--the problem is with the technology or the design, but if any apparent 'solidstatification' of tubes is perceived, the culprit is supposed to be only the wild and utterly uncontrollable acoustics of the suite. . . go figure! |
Oh yes, let's not forget that flabby bass, or conversely that magic vanishing bass, or that sudden hard clipping: these are apparently more artifacts that plague room acoustics where some tube designs are featured. . . Yet, if switching amps or solid state amps are present instead, 'tis always safe to point an accusing finger at the designer. |
Hi Atma, I do grant you that these show hotels seem to have lucky spaces and very very unlucky ones. Trying to Tame the wildness of some suite I am sure must be a frustratingly thankless task. . . . perhaps as easy as herding cats?! Is one of the problems that you manufacturers end up having to select a room from a floor-plan without having the opportunity of sonically testing the space ahead of time? Perhaps RMAF organizers should be encouraged to assign some of the odder sounding rooms to the admittedly few static displays. . . do not need good acoustics to select LPs from a bin, after all.
Back now to the discussion of artifacts and stereotypical audible flaws in switching amps, without here pointing fingers to models/brands in particular, I observe that that there are a number of such amps today that do still sound stereotypically 'digital' to a slight or greater extent. Among 'non stereotypical' switching amps, I have already waxed poetic on this and other threads about the two switching amps that I truly like as of the end of 2007. I should also point out though, that I have heard switching amps that did not seem to have any audible 'digititis', and still I was not able to like. In one particular case, the sound of one seemed overly dark to a fault, almost if the designer were attempting to overcompensate for expected stereotypical flaws. not sure if I was having a bad audio moment or I was perhaps in a 'dark' sounding suite. I did discuss the device with other audiophiles that have listened to it under various circumstances and received confirmation of my cursory impression.
As you said, the switching technology is young and evolving rapidly. It's certainly worth watching with an open mind. It is equally true that it may in the end turn out into the proverbial flash in the pan. . . and 10 years from now, instead of having grown to broader maturity, it may be simply remembered as a valiant experiment. We will have to wait and see. |
Hi Vince, excellent point about dwindling NOS tubes. . . eventually these animals should be declared endangered species and given a modicum of protection against careless use by heartless audiophiles!
You have good chances of being correct about the future of class D amplification. Yet, it is a lot safer to study evolution with hindsight than using foresight. . . . at least for old and crotchety 'secular humanists' like yours truly. Perhaps 65 millions years from now some bookish techno-paleonthologist will examine the then famous Silicon-boundary layer in ancient petrified garbage dumps an discover an explosive growth in the fossil record of switching amplifiers. And perhaps a fossilized 'organism' with an especially unusual body plan sporting a transformerless combination of pre-silicon B-300 tubes and primitive switching amplification modules will be uncovered. . . a brand new techno-phylum will be assigned to it. . . and the specimen will be named Hallucigenia Atmaspherii by its discoverer--an incredibly distant descendent of Aloysius Qwantz Schmaltzenstein Gavronsky. |
"How many people on this thread think that they will have the same class D amplifier ten years from now- knowing full well that in far less time than that their amp will be superseded?"
Excellent question Atma. . . and I should add, How many people on this thread think that they will have the same class anyclass amplifier ten years from now- knowing full well that in far less time than that their audiophilia will have the better of them and will force them to 'upgrade'? Only I, and very few other rabid audiofools, keep amps of any kind for 10 years, B-300, Mos FET, ICE, Doppler eliminators. . . or otherwise. |
Golden words Sirspeedy! Militancy of any denomination narrows our perception of reality, our ability to learn from one another, and ultimate to enjoy the fullness of life, including our hobby! |
Mid-Fi huh. . . Oh Dear. . . I really did not realize the horrible implication of those scores! And I have been all along singin' the virtues of mere mid-fi trailer-trash electronics. . . how could I? What are my neighbors going to say if they only find out what questionable company I have been keepin'?! . . . I's so sorry I's so sorry. . . I really didn't know nothin' none of it! |
Dstep, your post is like Music to my ears! I have heard at some length the Primare CD21 + JRDG Concerto preamp + JRDG 312 + Vienna Mahler combination in the Soundings/JRDG suite at RMAF two years in a row. The sound was awesome with IMO unparalleled musicality. . . so much so I have suffered a major audiophilic breakdown during the Summer. . . and as a result just last week I have taken delivery of a brand new pair of Vienna Mahlers. . . . . . . A new amp will hopefully replace my trusty old JRDG Model 7M monos this time next year. . . Have not yet made up my mind completely, but Rowland 312 and Spectron Musician 3 Sig are currently high on my prefs list. |
In an attempt to refocus the discussion, I'd like to point the gang to the recent blog followup by Martin Colloms:
http://hificritic.com/Scene/news.aspx
In his post Martin lists 17 different measurable flaws he seems to have uncovered in the reviewed samples. I have heard only the current version of the Channel Island amps and the older Evo2 series of Bel Canto, while I have not heard the latest Bel Canto series nor I have any experience at all of the other two brands. I admit I have detected some slight artifacts in the Evo 2 and perhaps more so in the Channel Island which may be congruent with his observations. The problem in his analysis is rather that -- once again -- he jumps to generalizing conclusions by extending a priori these flaws to all and every switching amplifier implementations on the market today. I have no qualms with his analysis. . . the problem is all in the logic of his induction step. |
"After a day of bleeding ears, . . ."
Dstep, have you and I perhaps purchased our ears from the same supplier of auricular equipment? My general experience is same as yours. . . lots of ear bleeders at RMAF; but each time I returned to the JRDG/Vienna/Primare Soundings room for one more hour of music, I felt I had 'come back home'! |
Hi Deshapiro, very interesting, please tell us more once your eval is complete. In particular Spectron/Boulder comparative findings about extension/delicacy of treble, bass extension/tunefulness and control, overall harmonic development and decay across the range, low level microdynamics. staging, hall ambiance, headroom. |
Hi Dave, I am not aware that Halcro amps are switching amps. . . but if you have any comparative findings of Halcro with Spectrum, that would be interesting. |
Elbroth2, what switching amps besides the already mentioned Nuforce and Bel canto have you evaluated? |
I haven't thought about it much MRT. . . when did you first realize you were obsessing about class D amplification? . . . Impacting your life? . . . Care talking about it? |
I am elated to see in this thread manufacturers discussing merits -- or perceived issues -- with switching amplification. We consumers can only learn from these exchanges. I am however much less comfortable with veiled potshots about one's competition of the type:
"So into what impedance does this spec occur or is it 'marketing'?"
I appreciate a designer being proud of his own products, but there are more effective ways to demonstrate it. . . . than resorting to the 'lower' ground, which is not necessarily deemed a highly regarded marketing technique. Regards, Guido |
Hi AR_T, please try post here a super simplified version of the explanation as you know it.
MRT, I am terribly sorry to learn about your physical and spiritual suffering caused by panels, solid state, switching amplification, and other such admittedly uncivilized, raw, and aggressive sounding technologies. In a sense I deem myself fortunate that -- being somewhat of an uncivilized and unrefined pragmatist myself -- I seem not to suffer from such horribly insidious and generalized malaises. . . . heck, I am so bad I even find tubed equipment can be delightful and eminently listenable. |
"I know a fair nubmer of conventional amplifier designers. . ., (tube and solid state) who have the same goal. . ."
That's precisely the point Ralph, the ultimate goal often enough remains the same -- as it should -- regardless of underlying technology. |
Tom_hankins, I listened to Red Dragon twice last year at RMAF. I found them not to display any obvious digital artifacts, but they were somewhat dark to my taste. having asked some other people's impressions, there seems to be some general opinion that Red Dragons may be on the dark side of neutral with moderate harmonic development. . . . on they other hand, I heard them only in one single suite and I have not had the opportunity of hearing them again this year. . . because I went to the wrong suite. Depending on your sound preference, Red Dragons may or may not be what you are seeking.
If you like monoblocks, I understand that the Spectron Musician 3SE bridged to mono are -- according to Schang -- to be reckoned with. |
I am not sure MRT how to acquire a taste for a particular technology. . . I sure do not have a 'taste' for switching amps in cprinciple, same as I do not have a 'taste' for tube amps or classic solid state amps. . . . . I simply try to keep an open mind to all. Within switching amps I have listened to only a few and -- at the cost of sounding tedious -- I very much enjoyed the Spectron Musician 3 Sig and the Rowland 312. Other switching amps that I have had the priviledge to listen to I enjoyed partially or not at all. . . but so many switching amps I have 0 experience with.
This situation is identical for me to tube amps or solid state amps. . . after careful removal of large chip on shoulder, I listened to all I managed. . . out of these I enjoy some. . . most amps unfortunately I have not heard yet. |
Bingo MRT, I am very familiar with the problem. . . original live purely unamplified music does not usually sound terribly similar to the recorded product of the same. . . from humble local libraries or world-famous superannuated concert halls alike. Yet, they can be both differently wonderful. . . or even differently awful. |
Deshapiro, have you reached a final word on your Spectron vs Boulder 2060 comparison? |
Hi Lucey, I have no info on the sound or technology of the Halcro MC20 (is it a digital amp?). Red Dragon in my experience does not have stereotypical 'digital amp' artifacts, but to my ears it may be somewaht dark. I Also remember I was hoping to hear a little more of harmonic development and microdynamics when I listened to it last year at RMAF. |
Hmmm, If I had only done my homework. . . I would have been able to answer my own question. MC20 from Halcro is a class D amp indeed. And here is its Stereophile review:
http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/406halcro/ |
OK gang, now making a feeble attempt to get back on track. . . who has had any experience with the Halcro MC20 or other Halcro class D designs? |
Hi Vince, that's exactly my point. The sound of rosin for example is extremely faint and can be heard clearly only if you 'are' a microphone, or you are sitting/standing so close to the performer to be socially unacceptable under most circumstances. most concert goers will never hear the rasp of rosyn from the 4th, 12, 30th, or 50th row behind that plynth. . , particularly if they are surrounded by other listeners wearing sound absorbing winter clothing. Besides, what is 'real'? What I can hear when in a good day without tinnitus I can outperform audiometric equipment? or what's real is what the average middle age listener hears with a 12,000Hz cutoff, or what my dog can hear with a bandwidth of perhaps 50Khz. Or perhaps the perfect ears are those of a microphone? Which one? How sensitive? With ewhat dispersion, with what kind of bandwidth? Even the most perfect recording is by necessity just a cropped, filtered, an edited 'view' of reality containing selective enhancements. Nothing wrong with that, provided that we realize that our own perception IS NOT reality, but merely a useful and partial interpretation of it.
I have grown wearie of reading the black&white cartoonesque audio manifests of those who seem to be wanting to ram facile editions of some kind of Audiophile Pravda down my unwilling gullet. When I really want to hear the 'Truth' I'll find me a Church. . . for the time being, music and the quest for beauty may suffice. |
Vince, tell you the truth. . . I am all for hyperrealism in recordings and in playback. . . I honestly love it and so many times I can hardly have enough of it. Yet. . . you and I know exactly what it is. . . a particular mediated view of reality, and will love it for its very nature. I fear that If I ever got in a position where I could hear Larah St. John's Stradivari the same way I can listen to it on her recording of J. S. Bach Sonata No. 3, appreciating her fiddling the fiddle may end up being the very least thing on my fuddling brain. . . . |
Ah yes of course, charming cliche! . . . I truly enjoied it, thanks! |
I'll drink to that, Zilla!
By the way, what amps have you compared before /after selecting your Nuforce? And what were relative strengths/weaknesses? |
What can I say, sadly, I am probably not a member of the species 'Homo sapiens', because 'tubey' distortion do not sound at all priviledged to these poor ears. [chuckles!] Oh well, guess there are worse things in life! |
"Consider that because you have heard some tube amps which have coloration does not mean that all of them are like that."
I agree with you Atma. With any technology there exists stereotypical coloration/distortion, there is also brand-typical coloration/distortion, and then there is simply the atypical kind. I suspect it may be a lot easier to eliminate outright distortions than to tame colorations for everyone. We should remember that one audiophile's poison often is someone else's Nirvana. . . or in other words someone's coloration may be someone else's 'neutrality'. For myself I often do not even attempt to define my preference in terms of warm/lean/neutral. . . I will simply describe what I hear in semi-musical terms as well as I can, and explain what I like and what I do not like, and if I am at all capable, why. |
Of course you are correct, Elberoth2. As I said earlier, for any technology there are stereotypical distortions, brand typical distortions, and atypical ones. Where I have problems is characterizing distortions in tube gear as 'benign' as a whole. At RMAF I ran out with 'bleeding ears' of as many tube suites as I did from SS or class D suites. Tube amps sounding classically 'tubey' were definitely a minority.
As for ARC Ref 110, I agree completely that it--and the rest of the current ARC lineup--are darn special amps; I own a Ref 3 and in general I love the new ARC sound; The only reason why I will not even consider a Ref 110 is because. . . tube amps generate too much heat in the ghastly Texas Summer. What switching amps have you evaluated/contrasted against Ref 110 besides Bel Canto Evo 4 and Nuforce? One of the problems I can see with some class D marketing is a tendency to hyperbolic generic claims of the type. . . 'X crushes SS/tube sacred cows costing 4 times as much'. The problem is that such sweeping uncautious claims expose a product to equally uncautious counterargument such as yours, where you contrast a brand new $10K tube design (Ref 110) with a 5 year old $4K switching design (Evo 4) and a current $5K switching design (Nuforce Ref 9 SE) only to apply the old induction step and produce a slightly brave conclusion. Seems to me you are comparing one orange with two clementines. . . and concluding that all oranges are . . . heavier. |
Branimir, I agree with your finding on the Rowland 302. It is worth pointing out though that the 302 was JRDG 1st venture in class D, and was replaced in 2006 by the 312, which sounds quite a bit different, and to these ears is both more musical and much more exciting.
TVAD says:
"Class D amps are getting attention because they are less expensive to manufacture, purchase and operate than SS and tube amps."
Undeniably, one of the major reasons I am interested in class D amplification is its promise to let me listen to music during the sweltering Austin (TX) summers and I won't have to worry about swapping out exhausted tubes. It is also undeniable that Switching amps have largely debuted on the market with rather minimalistic and relatively inexpensive designs that may have created a perceptional stereotype. I should however point out that they are starting to get the attention of major 1st tear manufacturers, and more ambitious devices having significant price tags are now appearing on the market: Rowland has offerings ranging upwards of $30K, Kharma has introduced new monoblocks likely costing over $40K USD, and so is Mark Levinson. I recently heard that more such manufacturers may be preparing to soon enter the race.
I have not heard any all out assault switching models as yet. But -- already in the habit of keeping an open mind on any tube or classic SS device until I have had the opportunity of a personal audition -- I am simply looking forward to giving any such 'statement' switching devices at least the benefit of doubt ahead of any actual audition. After all, if my modest experience serves me, I do end up liking roughly 20% of what I listen to, regardless of underlying technology. |
Hi Branimir, I have not heard the JRDG 301s so I cannot comment about their sound, and can even less venture tu guess on whether I would prefer them over other comparably priced designs, which I have also not auditioned. On spec only, I am slightly concerned about the 301's low nominal damping factor of 60, which may make their application difficult to some speakers. I do not know if damping has changed in the new version.
I am though even more intrigued about the upcoming JRDG Criterion Pre -- being a completely new reference level design -- and how it may compare to the 'usual suspects' in its price range--tubes hybrids, and SS alike. |
Very true TVAD, almost as inexpensive as 6550 tubes or just about any transistor or cap used in traditional designs ranging from a couple of hundred dollars up to stratospheric prices.. . . To tell the truth, I do not really care about the cost of any underlying building block. Nor in fact I care in principle about the cost of a component per se. What matters to me is how all of these chips/modules/tubes are put together to form a component that will in turn contribute to make music in my loft. If it measures up, that's fine and good, if it doesn't, no amount of mil -specced Tantalium-doped machined Aluminium fascias, 0-feedback pangalactic design, 60-year-old-tubes used to decode WW2 German cyphers, 128bit asymptotic hadro-stochastic processors, 3160 transistors, class A/B/D/T, Doppler elimination, poplar or mpingo sidings, or otherwise mouthwatering old or new real or imaginary technology is going to matter to me a single half bit. |
Could be, 'nihil sub Sole novi' after all. Marketing rationale may be a factor for determining pricing point of some stereo component. I have seen--or should I better say heard--entire systems at RMAF that sounded terrible. . . and sported price tags of Cosmic proportions. . . then others at similar prices sounded fantastic. . . . then several modestly priced systems sounded awful, while other similarly priced entry systems were pure music to my ears. |
I knew you would agree TVAD. . . As a case in point, have a listen to a well broken-in Spectron Musician 3 SE when you have the opportunity. . . I'd be interested in your findings. |
