I want greater low level resolution and reduced distortion. I think the increased speed of horns is nice, but the ability to resolve complex classical & play at loud volumes with little if any distortion or strain is unparraleled. Especially after hearing compression drivers. I recently heard Cessara Beta horns. They were a revelation in detail & resolution. No horn coloration. They weren't perfect, but very close. Using all TAD drivers. I noticed a few people changing to horns after having speakes in the 50K price range. I am curious about their experiences. |
Shadorne,
You are right about the sweet spot being incredibly narrow. Within the sweet spot it is perfect but outside almost monoaural in sound. |
Dcstep,
Have you listened to horns? I think you need to understand some of the physics related to horns to understand that there is a limitation to what a dynamic speaker can do compared to a horn. The mass of the driver is so much smaller than any dynamic driver This will allow a compression driver to be so much faster than any dynamic driver, allowing for the increased detail & resolution with less distortion. It is just not possible for a dynamic driver to equal a horn in those aspects.
On to your advocating improved setup of my speakers. I used what Wilson terms the WASP system. All Wilson speakers have adjustable pivot points for the tweeter. Indeed the speakers are out into the room due to freeing up the speaker from the resonance of the rooom. This is done by voicing the room while having someone at the seating position. It is also done w. 1/4 inch precision. |
I am curious what systems people had before and after a switch to horns. Or maybe in the reverse direction & why. Are you "happier" in the long run. I know it involves a major equipment change. Simplification in one way depending on direction. I need to do some listening to hear some of the full range / without crossover solutions some people love. I have heard some incredible dynamic speakers that don't use crossovers. Yet, for true full range extension additional bass drivers/horns and high power amplification will be needed at least for the bottom octave. And for the highs, maybe a supertweeter. I read somene selling of their line arrays w. a linear ribbon as well in favor of a horns system. I am curious if more people have done the same.
PS, my speakers are excellent, I just know there is a level up but for a price. That is the question. And it appears that for the money, speakers have the largest impact on sound. |
Jsadurni,
You are saying exactly what I experienced. What kind of speakers are you using? Do you feel the compression drivers are superior to the full range drivers as you explained above? I would love some more details. |
Shadorne,
Quite a few horn lovers I know also mentioned ATC. I want to give them a listen as well.
Kana813,
I read the review a short while ago. The reviewer mimics what I heard. That is why I posted the thread. I am curious how many others have experienced horns as the "final" step on the audio ladder. |
I would also be wary of horns with excessively high compression ratio - extreme high efficiency - as you will get harmonic distortion in the treble at higher SPLs. I would also avoid long throws (narrow dispersion) as this will make room/placement and synergy with the bass much tougher Shadorne, Please explain the above in more detail. I don't understand it 100%. |
Shadorne,
Based on what you are saying (I am new to understanding horns) a long throw horn - front loaded - will be longer in length rather than wider? In the case of a very long Bass Horn that is front loaded (rather than a folded bass horn - I assume that is rear loaded?) will be to directional and not disperse well?
Dan_ed,
I looked at your system. I see Edgarhorns & Acapellas. So my question to you is do you have an Ion tweeter? How does it compare to a Compression driver? I assume the Acapellas have some issues with the bass speed compared to the horn. Correct me if I am wrong.
And to all - do you go DIY for horns in a full range sense. I get a feeling going all out the speakers will sell for well above $100K. Hence, I respect Shadorne's use of ATC to keep things in perspective. I have been told by a few hornys that their dynamic speakers of choice are either PMC or ATC. |
Exlibris,
I heard the Cessaro Betas in Germany in a home system. They were slightly modified from standard using a Field Coil Midrange and TAD drivers for tweeter & super tweeter. Also folded horn TAD woofers. I think 4 drivers for the bass. There were limitations to the sound. Primarily the room was small so bass couldn't generate 100%.
The system uses an adjustable crossover on top. I felt the treble could be turned down a touch. So in that regard, they could be taken as slightly high fi ish. But...I am wondering how a Fostex Supertweeter would compare and has me curious.
There was a certain magic in these speakers that defies all electronics etc. Hard to explain, but resolution and a lack of distortion was present at any volume setting. If you closed your eyes, you could not find the speakers (within the sweet spot) and the speakers being fairly tall gave a very realistic image size. The body on male vocals was spooky to say the least. With acoustic guitar the strings came to life. You didn't strain to hear any detail. It was there. Not unrealistic just there. It makes you question where to put your money. Speakers vs. electronics. This was run with I think 1 watt.
I will give you a little of my listening biases as they have matured. I have been looking for a speaker that can play well at both low & high volumes. I have found speakers that sound OK loud but then very poor at low volumes. And speakers that excel at low volumes only to distort at high volumes. Actually, I want to crank it up once in a while at close to 100 db. Yes, crazy, but here in Aruba there aren't many concerts to go to. I am extremely sensative to distortion of any form and work endlessly to eliminate it. To date no dynamic speaker I have heard aside from some truly Giant multi driver arrays have been able to handle such a task. My Maxx IIs have thier limits. Also they don't have the detail of the Cessaros at any level. They have been older designs. And the crossovers have been audible. Another huge sensitivity for me. Most speakers get very congested at loud volumes. They lose detail and smear. I would say this is room related to some extent, but after hearing the Cessaros this was no longer the case. You can listen at 100db and not even know you are listening so loud. No distortion etc. And everything remains stable in space with a transparency that is hard to believe. There is no horn coloration at all. The crossovers are seemless, all 1st order. Many horn people love the speed a horn can give. I like the speed but find more important is the lack of distortion.
Thus I am now progressing to setting up a 2nd system w. horns in the future. I am trying to learn as much as possible to get a sense of direction and find setting up a horn system quite a daunting task. Too many options and I need to learn the benefits. I won't mention many of the popular horns I have heard that many love. Suffice it to say, they all have been colored (horn sounding) and the crossover has been detectable.
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Exlibris,
Yes we are in the same boat. I was curious if there were others. It is nice not be alone. I feel a few others have gone this way as well.
Horns are very complex to understand and the horn world has so many options. Also how to integrate bass is going to be a problem. Have you seen the massive 20 feet long bass horns some use. Others use a folded horn or a back loaded horn. I have to hear more implementations to know what is my direction.
I also think you can do it for less. I have been told by a few people a compression driver and field coil come very close. I prefer to do without the hassle of a field coil but love what I heard. The TAD drivers are great and the Cessaros might be an option due to their turn-key installation & adjustability. But there are also fabulous US products around. I just spoke w. one designer who was incredibly informative and modest. There is a lot to learn.
The truth is I think horns have come a long way but also have thier limits. I don't want to throw in a ton of money only to find I made a mistake. While I can sell a Maxx II or you can sell your 101es, most horns will be impossible to sell unless they are Avantgardes or the like which we both don't want.
I also want to hear the Sunny speaker. I think it is a back loaded bass horn with front loaded highs & mids. Have you heard any you liked. The Cessaros blew my mind from the mids on up. I would have turned down the highs a notch but the crossover easily allows for that. Total clarity and no distortion. Something special. You feel you need to pay for admission the sound is so good. Especially the wonderful air pressure in the room from listening to a 12 string guitar as if it is in front of you. You are left with a giant smile like the first time you heard a great system. |
Sirspeedy,
You have the right guy. It was nice meeting you at the show. That room didn't do much for me. I just wanted to give it a chance.
Rhyno,
Found it a few days ago. Thank you. Romy seems to really hit a few key points in his analysis about horns that line up exactly with what many others say & with what I have heard.
The bass speed & extension limit remains the most difficult to circumvent without having tremendous horns. I need to read more. One thing I will say for sure, understanding design first will allow a more informed choice in speakers. It will also help explain what we hear. The problem with 20 Hz in a horn is the size requirements and length of the horn. Hence all the back loaded horn designs etc. |
Shadorne,
It is funny how ATC & PMC have not been as successful in the US as other companies. The truth is, they don't have the looks or the WAF to make them special. I am going to make the effort to hear them, as too many ears I respect have migrated to this direction. It is a gap in the market that really needs filling. I heard a wonderful speaker in Munich that I would almost accept. Backes & Muller. A German brand with some truly unique design elements. The sound was incredible and they use a unique "horn" type tweeter with active amplification. I didn't read a lot about it but it was one of the best sounds at the show. Something special. The price was also "special" in the 60-100K range at least.
As far as eye watering abilities, I am going to merge this conversation w. Exlibris question and do a redirect on the thread.
Exlibris,
It depends on what we listen to as our reference. The truth is a true live concert leaves me fatigued. That is for Rock & Roll. Classical is a different stor as is Jazz. But there is pressure and it can be fatiguing. I think live music is fatiguing at times as well. Especially anything with a large group. We feel the pressure.
So my question is - are we able to live long term w. the pressure or do we need 2 systems. I think the pressure will get to be much at a certain point. But any large venue does produce sound pressure/air pressure. From the crowd the room etc. Have you ever been to a restaurant w. poor acoustics. I find leaving the restaurant to be a relief after a point in time.
Is the pursuit of live vs. "musicality" in conflict. Is that why many people use SETs for horn systems? Mind you many people are using class D amplification or digital amplification on horns these days. I have a feeling that is probably too honest for long term listening enjoyment.
I am speaking in circles but at some point this hobby is steering me and many others in circles.
I just went to a live jazz show last night and I didn't find the pressure too much. But the room was very large and it allowed the sound to relax. and not overload the room. I guess the speakers we buy determine what venue we want to be inside. |
I read the review of the ATC. Has me very interested. All the recommendations here are excellent. But listening & time are the limitations.
In the end there seem to be few choices for ultimate dynamic capabilities outside of Horns. And yes, bass is an issue. But I do believe there are some great horns w. bass. I need to hear it myself. Most people don't have the room big enough to sustain bass in thier rooms properly. |
Pacific Island,
I have heard some excellent active systems. The main negative with them, is that the market is unresponsive to them. I think, audiophiles would rather be able to choose thier amps then have them dictated. Yet, I am in agreement that well executed active systems (I have only heard a few, not ATC or PMC yet) can easily outperform most passive systems in terms of dynamics. A speaker that truly surprised me was Backes & Muller that is fully active with what appears to be a digital crossover or something similar. But the price was close to 100K fully executured. |
GerryM5,
I am curious what horns you have tried that lead you to your conclusions. I wouldn't say all are equal. That would apply to most speakers. You and I are in a similar place but mybe coming on different paths but I would love to know more. I have heard many a horn that didn't do it. But a few that did.
AudioKinesis,
I am a little confused about horns. Do they actually have a more diffuse reverberant field than dynamic speakers? Does this apply to all horns or to some? I would love a bit more of an explanation in terms of design and what the different benefits are. Thanks. |
