CAT SL-1 Ultim. Mk2 vs Manley Steel. for CAT JL-2

The issue of "best possible" is something that we all ultimately chase but such success comes with a lot of experimentation, personal choice and compromise. And once we feel we have this, along comes another "best" component to make us no longer content with what we have.

I agree with Bob's advice here to seriously consider separate line and phono stages. A full function preamp like the CAT or the Steelhead may be a good starting point. And then you can experiment with other separate line and phono stages.

As an owner of the JL-3's, the mono version of the JL-2, the one thing that I paid dearly for with these amps was their dynamic and resolving capabilities. Careful selection of upstream products that might limit these strengths, as Bob wrote with the Steelhead directly driving his amps, would be something I would pay much attention to.

I tend to like a very large 3-dimensional presentation, volume of space portrayed, decays, image size, etc., so my attention has been here for many years. With the CAT amps, hearing their strengths and a much more neutral presentation brought me a little closer to center. But my gut feeling is that the CAT preamp would go too far toward an analytical sounding presentation for my own personal taste. The key is to find a system balance between the one side of resolution, dynamics and neutrality and the other of space and dimensionality.

I have found the Aesthetix Callisto/Io combination to be an incredible match with the JL-3's. This is over your $7500 budget but the Io can be configured with volume controls and such a used unit does fit in your budget; they simply are not for sale too often. Audiogon member Rushton has much experience with the Io Signature with volume controls. Hunt down some of his posts as I suspect this might be worthy of your consideration.

John

Ubglub & Schorly: Glad to hear my ramblings were of some value to you both.

Brian: Yes, I would like this much. With the tight schedule at work through the end of Nov, it looks like Dec is the earliest I can get down your way. And a stop to visit my ill friend in SW Wisc makes it all the more special. So I will make every effort to get back your way before the end of the year....and with the JL-3's and dead Versa.

John

Ubglub: I have no knowledge of the JL-3hc even though this site lists it as a CAT product model. Perhaps this is the JL-3 Non-Signature that Brian at EssentialAudio has mentioned a few times here. But at $10k, I have to believe that would be per amp for a $20k total price; this sounds mighty close to the $22k Brian talked about for the JL-3 non-sig. Or perhaps, this is a totally different or even a non-existant model. Brian and his CAT dealer friend in Chicago know much more about the CAT product line than I do. Ideally, calling Ken Stevens would make the most sense for you to get all your questions answered. He is very helpful.

Concerning power output, the JL-2 stereo amp like the JL-1 monos, uses 8 6550 tubes for each channel to get a CAT spec'd 100w output. The JL-3 Sig uses 16 6550 tubes for each channel to achieve a spec'd 150w.....not 200w. I suspect the actual power output is higher for all these models. But the 300w Class A rating for the JL-3hc model sounds a bit fishy to me unless it is actually configured in a non-triode topology.

The CAT amps are known for some serious current output and can drive some mighty difficult real-world speaker loads out there. When I had Magnepan 3.5 speakers and the Audio Research Classic 150 mono amps, which were rated at 150 Class A, these amps shut down regularly when really "asked" to deliver to these speakers; they simply could not deliver as expected. The Wolcott P220 monos at a rated 220w output had no problem driving these speakers at all. And just before I sold the Magnepans, I used the JL-3 Sigs and again there was no problem at all. Specified power rating between models is often not apples to apples - 150 watts did not equal 150 watts between the ARC and the CAT.

John

Incredible timing - I see that while I was typing my response, Brian replied here. Ah, the psychic powers within us. 8-)

Ubglub: I have not heard two different CAT amp models in an A/B comparison. With all the praise of these amps over the years, I finally had to hear what they were all about. Upon first hearing the JL-2 in Brian's system, I knew they were indeed special.

The JL-2 did not have the rich and lush sound that I had been chasing before. What it did have was a see-through and dynamic quality that I was quite unprepared for. In Brian's system, the JL-2 and the Atmasphere MA1's were both incredibly impressive driving the U1s that easily left my 6 year-old Wolcotts far behind. What I really wanted was the sheer emotion of the MA1's AND the attack of the JL-2. Even at this level, there's no "best" as it still comes down to personal preference.

I ultimately went with the CAT because I felt I could more easily get the rich and spatial attributes through other carefully selected components in my system than to ever get what the CAT did like no amp I had heard ... and ... I tried many amps with the Magnepan 3.3/3.5 speakers.

So why the JL-3? ..... and why the Signature model? First of all, I have to tell you that in my current system setup, and the forseeable future, the JL-2 would get me very very close to what I have with the JL-3 sigs. But I was ultimately too stubborn to get anything but mono amps for a number of reasons: amps near the speakers, shorter speaker cables (I already use long ICs around the room to the amps), more channel separation, more headroom, etc. I needed to "just do it" and get an amp that would work with virtually any speaker and not have any afterthoughts as to doing it "right" the first time. Had I not been so hard headed for this, I would have just gone with the JL-2 right then and there. But the $22k for the JL-3 non-sig that Brian had told me about was always in the back of my mind.

I knew I could afford the mono amps but ultimately I would take a hit on upgrading my Magnepans to the A1s or Avalons that I was also eager to hear. None of this gear was available for audition here in Minneapolis. And the Von Schweikert dealer had also gone out of business so I knew I'd have to travel around the midwest to hear these again as well. No other speakers sold at local dealers captured my attention.

Just as I was preparing to drive out of state to hear the Avalons, a pair of the JL-3 Signatures became available. With much correspondence back and forth on these, the temptation was too great to pass it up. It meant the end of moving up to any number of speakers I had my eyes on. Ultimately I did get an older pair of A1s from someone who wanted to scale down to smaller speakers. And in fact he was interested in my Magnepans but I sold those in 1 day to a local buyer. Shipping Magnepans in their flimsy boxes was just too risky to try again.

When the time comes, a purchase of new A1's or one of the others will happen. And with the more efficient newer SL speakers, the JL-2 would even be more suitable. But with the JL-3 Signature amps, I have no concern that I will need to change amps because of a speaker (like the Avalons or MBL) I might prefer over the SLs. These amps can drive virtually anything out there. And that was the whole point of me going with the JL-3's.

I will answer your other question and then I will stop rambling - the disadvantages of the JL-3 monos amps vs. the JL-2 stereo amp. Both models use a triplet (12AU7/12AX7/6922) of small signal tubes but for output, the JL-3 has double the output tubes. And this latter difference not only brings on a maintenance factor but also much more heat. The JL-3's raise my basement room by 4-5 degrees in the first hour and then about 1 degree each hour. So after 3-4 hours, what was 70 degrees is nearly 80! I have to believe 16 6550 tubes in a JL-2 would be much less heat than the 32 tubes in the JL-3's!

And then there is the need for 30A circuits. I remember at Brian's home, powering the JL-2 caused the lights in the room to briefly dim. Powering down/up all other amps we tried that day had no affect on the lights at all. And this issue came home to me the instant I powered up the first JL-3. The 20A breaker tripped the first couple times I turned on an amp. Then all was fine....until I powered on the second amp! Ken Stevens wrote to tell me I needed one 30A circuit and that I had to wait 5 seconds, but not more than 10, before I powered up the 2nd amp. I ultimately put in two 30A circuits - one for each amp, both on the same phase as the 20A circuit driving the sources and phono/line stages.

So did I scare you with the efforts of owning the JL-3s?

Schorly: Sorry for taking over this thread.

John