Cartridges: Complete Scam?
Saying “an expensive cartridge sounds great in an expensive system” isn’t answering the question, it’s simply punting it into the realm where the premise can’t be easily tested. In fact I do go to audio shows, most recently Capital Audiofest which was dominated by vinyl systems. I ended up buying a MoFi StudioDeck based on the performance of the MoFi room there that was running a $2k table + cartridge bundle. My StudioDeck is a $1,150 bundle with a $200 Studio Tracker cartridge. Here’s the thing: the MoFi room was also running TAD Evolution Ones and high end electronics, so OF COURSE it was going to sound good...I was impressed with such a “modest” front end was up to it though. The question is: would moving up from its $500 MM to, say, a $4K MC result in a significant sonic improvement...or not? Likewise, would moving up from my $200 cartridge to, say, a $2k range cartridge result in a significant improvement in sound? There seems to be a strong sentiment online that NO, there wouldn’t be a large improvement. The sound may change, but not improve by any significant amount. If that’s true, that seems to suggest that the high-end cartridge industry is just peddling woo to vulnerable audiophiles. |
If someone asked you: "Would I see a major improvement in sound if I upgraded from my Elac bookshelves to a pair of Magico Q3s?" You would answer, absolutely yes you would. Not: "You have to pair them with ultra high end amps and sources." Not: "Some people can tell the difference but not everyone..." Not: "Wrong way of thinking..." It's very simple: Magicos are better than Elacs. The end. Anything other than that is just useless information that doesn't serve anyone. Magicos weigh 250 lbs, can you handle them, do you have the room for them, etc and so on -- useless info, anyone can read a spec sheet and understand the possible drawbacks. "You have to pair them with ultra high end equipment..." Why? Will they lose their superior performance capacity because they're hooked up to a more modest amp? Will the extreme engineering techniques used to eliminate resonance across the audio band turn itself off because they're running from a $5k amp as opposed to a $50k one? Will their unique drivers downgrade themselves? WHY, exactly, are you responding to a simple question with a qualifying non-answer? So. Can someone explain WHY a $1,000 table's tonearm can't be used to mount a $2-3k cartridge? What is the technical reason? Will it fail to transmits certain frequencies, or certain voltage swings, what exactly? Do cheaper tonearms not have the capability to hold the cartridge in the right angle and apply the right amount of tracking force? What's going on here? |
According to this comparison exercise that compared sub-$1000 cartridges being played on a $1,500 VPI Traveller, the reference setup thrown in there as an ultra high-end control (almost $200k) came in SECOND to a Audio-Technica. And then there were all the people that voted for the really low end stuff. Guys, how on Earth does anyone explain this? https://www.analogplanet.com/content/nine-cartridges-compared-reviewed-and-voting-results |
"Which is better, a Pass or an Onkyo?" The Pass is better. Not, it's better if its paired with Pass pre-amp. Not, depends on your definition of use-value. That MoFi system at Capital Audiofest sounded really good. That was a $2k table + cartridge combo using their $250 phono stage....running into TAD electronics and Evolution Ones...gear that probably costs well north of $100k. I guess stereo "system" "balance" only works in one direction! So, what are we looking at here...could it be that MoFi unintentionally exposed the SCAM behind the cartridge industry by pairing a $2k turntable and cartridge + $250 phono with high-end components which ended up producing a high-end sound -- among the best of the show? Does that mean you're a SUCKER if you pay more than $500 (the non-bundled cost of the MoFi Ultra Tracker) on a cartridge? Or does it mean that this 23 lbs turntable and tonearm are the greatest value in vinyl history, and that it could have achieved stunning audio with an upgraded cart and phono stage? So, once again. I have this MDF 19 lbs turntable. It's an AC motor belt-drive that uses a Derlin platter and pulley. It's got a 35g aluminum tonearm. It's running into a $500 ($300 special from Music Direct) battery-powered phono stage. The large consensus on this forum is that installing a $2-3k cartridge will yield no or negative benefit. So let's assume I'm not going "balance" my system by installing $200k worth of speakers, amps, cables and pres. How much do I have to spend on an arm, table and phono stage to mine the true benefit out of a well-regarded $2-3k cartridge? Since I have no idea if the MoFi arm can be replaced, should I just return the unit right now -- that no matter what I do, a $1k turntable won't benefit from a $2k cartridge? |
You have manufacturers such as Benz Micro, Soundsmith, Koetsu, Clearaudio, Rega, Dynavector, etc, who make mid-to-high level cartridges ranging from $2K to as much as $15K (or more?). The sentiment I often come across online is that there is little or no difference between these products and vintage cartridges. Is that REALLY the case? If so, than what these manufacturers are engaged in is a scam, and those people online seem to know this through experience and I would do myself a huge disservice to dismiss them out of hand. Maybe I SHOULD send back my MoFi, find a Thorens, Garrard, Denon, etc, on eBay for next to nothing and have it restored for a few hundred. What do you guys think? Should I avoid the scam? If it isn't really the case, then it's just some people who have attached their ego to the gear that is attainable to them and so defend it out of emotional need and not because of the sound they produce. What do you guys think -- is "you get what you pay for" still in effect here? |
It’s hard for me to take a recommendation seriously when they come from people who restore dumpster-rescue vintage turntables — it sounds like to me that they’re just protecting their emotional investment in ultra low-end sound. However, I’ll admit that is just a bias on my part that may not have any value when talking about turntables and cartridges. Is the contention that all the modern engineering techniques and materials have little or no value to turntable / cartridge performance so therefore vintage equipment can still match up to modern gear? |
@rauliruegas Being honest, your input has had zero value, not only to me but to anyone. "Are you happy with your sound" is a meaningless question; what difference at all does it make if I'm happy or not happy with it? If I'm happy with my sound, does that mean my audiophile journey is complete -- is this the "right" mindset? What if I'm NOT happy, may I continue to pursue better sound in that case? Wether or not I'm happy with my sound has nothing to do with achieving better sound. Isn't there room to be happier? Why do I even need to explain this? Will more expensive cartridges lead to better sound? That is a question that has value not only to me, but to anyone else curious about this topic. It's mind-blowing how far some people will twist themselves into knots in order NOT to answer the question. |
So I'm browsing through the cartridge listings. It looks like the ads fall into one of two categories: 1. Dealers trying to move cartridges at full price while pretending they are massively discounted. 2. People trying to unload their old junk. I've learned already through buying vinyl through eBay and Discogs that people habitually lie about the quality of their items -- every single "as-new", "pristine", "looks unplayed", etc, record so far has has been dirty and scuffed. Unless it's literally new in sealed factory shrink wrapping it'll end up being someone's beaten-up crap. Does the same mentality apply to selling cartridges? At least when a dealer is selling their lightly used cartridge for basically full price, it'll look and probably is in good shape. But some of those private ads the casings look beaten up -- why do I want your beaten up junk bro? At least sell it to move and don't lie about how wonderful it sounds! Or is it everyone is scanning the listings non-stop for actual good deals and snap them up instantly so that all that's left are the dealers like that guy claiming to sell XYZs for 40-50% off (I do like the ones that have that cool little ball in the front...) and the old junk no one wants? Where do you find rare cartridges that compete with the finest modern cartridges? |
So researching what it takes to correctly align a cartridge — VTA, rake, tracking force, protractors, microscopes, listening tests, etc...let’s be real here. Are you guys who are proud of your dumpster recscues and vintage cartridges REALLY doing all of this? Or do you just sort of line things up by sight, fiddle a little, and call it good? Do I seriously need this $500 protractor jig? Do I seriously need a microscope? |
And yes madavid, you have absolutely no clue how good a properly set up cartridge from the 70s and 80s, using all those tools that make a difference and that you cynically besmirch, can sound. And I can tell you are a newbie to vinyl and equipment because you dismiss anything that isn't the newest, greatest and most expensive. Exactly why the heck are you listening to stone age vinyl in 2017 for Jupiter's sake? If these cartridges are so great -- why are they long out of production and can only be found in the backs of old record stores? Why hasn't someone cloned them? Those "giant killer" Denons are all over the place -- are they really giant killers? Someone on another forum claimed that they had laser-drilled boron cartridges in the 70s, too -- so, where are they all? The $500 protractor that is heavily recommended: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-B1YAlputIvk/WC1xrdPR6aI/AAAAAAABw3Q/VSluQrIUb_04i8BywRaYZXCM28bzr80NgCK4B/... Is it your contention than that $5k and definitely $10K+ cartridges are nothing but a scam? Is that protractor a scam -- will a paper cut-out really provide the same results? If expensive cartridges are a scam, what's not a scam -- ie, what's effective? Tonearms? Is a $15k Basis Superarm 9 a scam? Let's just deal with something real -- that thing is DEFINITELY not even remotely close to $15k to build. Even if it took a week for a master craftsman to piece one together from the finest parts, it would be worth a few thousand dollars at most. Or is it SO ASTOUNDING in terms of sound quality that it deserves to cost hugely more than the world's best tonearms? |
Okay guys, I'm a little confused here...the instructions for the AT-OC9ML/II say that if I'm using a MM/MC head amp that 100-Ohms resistance should be set...my Musical Fidelity supports this. But it ALSO says the recommended load is 20-Ohms and to use 20-Ohms in a step-up transformer? So, wait a second...how is it that a head amp is fine for 100-Ohms but if using a SUT you should use 20-Ohms? Does that mean I really need a SUT or a preamp with a 20-Ohm input? What does 20 vs 100 Ohms sound like anyway? I seem to be getting enough gain, so I don't understand what this means? |
@arkanya Thanks for real info. Okay guys, I ended up hedging my bets with a AT-OC9ML/II which appears to be a very well-regarded, and also not cheap, cartridge with a boron and Micro-Line stylus. I used a $10 mirrored protractor to dial it in and a $10 scale to set the tracking force. I have a magnified visor with LED headlamp that was invaluable for doing this -- it's almost impossible to to see the stylus tip without the aid of magnification. Guys, it doesn't sound good. Lean, congested, and basically rolled off -- for example, missing trailing "T"s in vocals. But honestly not that much different from my Studio Tracker bundler. I've read people say that MCs take a lot of break-in -- is that true? Or are cartridges really are a scam? Can I expect the AT to eventually open up, stop rolling off mid-range vocals, and actually pull out more detail and texture? |
