Cartridges: Complete Scam?

Dear Raul,

Again, more dancing around the issue; or, to be generous, misunderstanding.  What we are talking about has absolutely nothing to do with the “losted accuracy” of frequency response in the hearing of SOME musicians.  This has nothing to do with timing issues.  The relevance of this “cliche” is as much truth as the idea that musicians don’t care about audio. 

**** To aisle a problem of TT speed stability must be do it in a " scientific " way through measures in the short and long intervals of time or can be identified when that unstability is a gross one. ****

Once again, you are putting all your stock in the measurements.  I know what my ears tell me.  You think that I am deluding myself.  That’s fine, but I would respectfully suggest that when it comes to how audio relates to music and it’s many layers of nuance that you don’t seem to be digging deep enough.  

Happy Holidays to all!

**** But i believe we cannot hear when 33.333 rpm spins at 33.332 rpm ****

I believe you are correct and I said as much in my response to Raul.  

I said in my first post on this subject that I think this is the most misunderstood topic in audio.  Another example why this is so:

Yes, bad intonation (pitch) from the musicians is a bad thing, but, again, has nothing to do with the subject being discussed.  Many musicians play with less than good intonation, but this has no relevance to the issue of rhythm and how that rhythm is reproduced by the playback equipment.  And of course as you say you “cant help it with the turntable”.  What is the point here?  The issue is simply whether the turntable will reproduce the rhythm of the performance accurately or not, musical performance problems and all.  No?

chakster, with respect, what does any of what you wrote have to do with the subject at hand?  You have missed the point.  First, while you are correct that adults cannot “develop” perfect pitch they can develop “relative pitch” which for all intents and purposes accomplishes the same thing.  However, none of that is the issue here.  While not usually identified as a difference in pitch the resulting effect of slightly faster or slower turntable speed is sometimes identified by audiophiles by some turntables being perceived as “livelier” than others.  The bigger issue still is INCONSISTENCY of speed.  This is clearly heard as reduced rhythmic excitement in recordings and worse.  All of this in comparison to the total absence of these timing distortions when the comparison is to live music.  Moreover, I would submit that even when audiophiles cannot identify this problem specifically it is one of the things that causes preference of one turntable over the other depending on individual sensitivity to these problems.  

Dear Raul,

I am surprised that such an experienced audiophile as you seem to not differentiate between incorrect absolute turntable speed and speed instability.  First:

**** Now, if what you are saying is that perfect timing is only in live music ****

That is exactly what I’m saying and I don’t understand why that should surprise anyone.  A live performance will always have more rhythmic impetus, “groove”, PRAT, whatever one wants to call it compared to a recording of same and will be, by definition, “perfect”.  A recording may get very close depending on the quality of the equipment used to record/playback; and some listeners may be more sensitive than others to timing issues.  Btw, I don’t agree with your comment:

**** Not only me but any human been is more sensible/sensitive to timing than neutrality, ****

I have known many audiophiles who are much more sensitive to changes in timbre (bright, dark, harsh, smooth, etc.) than to timing issues.  As I mentioned, and with respect, you seem to be also.

**** Example: if my TT instead to spin at 33.333 rpm spins at 33.332 rpm: can we detect it?. ****

Probably not.  However, I can tell you that I know individuals with “perfect pitch” that can detect very very small changes in absolute pitch in music.  Let’s use a more realistic deviation from perfection; say 33.34 vs 33.33.  This may be heard as a very slightly faster/energetic performance of the same music; but if it remains STABLE at the “incorrect” speed it is not perceived as particularly problematic.  But this is not the issue; this is not what we are talking about.  SPEED STABILITY is the issue.  The problem is when the turntable’s speed does not remain locked on one speed and is constantly changing as is sometimes the case.  Even changes in very small increments are problematic.  This causes a very audible reduction in the rhythmic impetus of the music and the expressive value of the performance.  

**** Anyway: which are those speed unstability limits? zero tolerance? because the timing problem in audio always existed and if in the future nothing change allways will be there. We can't avoid it. So, which your conclusion about? because even in the LPs where you like its rhythm exist a timing problem ! ! ! ****

I have no idea what those limits are; and frankly I don’t care much.  As always, the numbers only tell part of the story and I prefer to let me ears tell me whether A or B sounds more like the real thing.  The rest of your statement we can agree on.  Again, recorded music will always fall short to some degree of the standard set by the live performance of the same.  As you say, “We can’t avoid it”.  So what?  I have always felt that this was a given and this doesn’t have to mean that recorded performances can’t be enjoyed limitations and all.  We try and minimize the problems with good equipment choices and setup and then we make the choice to either listen to and enjoy the music or focus on the equipment and it’s inevitable problems.  

Dear Raul, the parallels to our earlier analog/digital debate in another thread should be obvious. I mention that as a point of interest only since I really would prefer to not return to that specific argument; we will simply not agree on that point. However, I do think it all highlights once again the simple fact that each of us is more or less sensitive to and more or less forgiving of specific playback performance shortcomings than others. With respect, I believe that you are more sensitive to tonal neutrality issues than to timing neutrality issues.

**** During the recording process exist speed un-stabilities through the R"R decks and maybe ( I don’t know for sure. ) during the cutting process and you can’t hear or detect that rhythm was losted. ****

I could not disagree more strongly. I have many recordings on lp and cd that were recorded in analog that clearly exhibit speed instabilities that hurt the rhythmic impetus of the music and are heard as decreased rhythmic “groove” in the performance and often glaringly in the sound of sustained piano notes. These issues are clearly heard as a product of either the recording or the mastering process and not due to turntable issues.

**** Do you know those TT speed limits for not affect the rhythm? because there is no perfect TT and almost all of us enjoy that MUSIC rhythm. ****

Of course they do.  Again, I could not disagree more. Some, otherwise “good” (and expensive) turntables sound rhythmically anemic. Moreover, how then does one explain the dramatic improvement in rhythmic impetus of the music when some “highly regarded” belt drive turntables are converted to string drive? Whether a listener enjoys the music or not depends on how sensitive he/she is to less than close-to-perfect speed stability. I say “close-to-perfect” because only in live music can one have perfect speed stability of the kind that allows the full rhythmic nuances of the performance; and if the PERFORMANCE is not perfectly rhythmically stable it can be heard as such and the product of the perfomance not a distortion by the equipment. I recognize that there exist turntables that are very very good in the speed stability department. Good direct drive tt’s obviously do extremely well in this dept. However, they, like all tables, have their own tonal signature and this becomes part of the “balance” of all parameters that we all try to achieve based on our own personal idea of what is best.

I have always felt that accurate reproduction of rhythm is the “final frontier” of good audio reproduction. Imo, it is the most overlooked and misunderstood audio performance parameter and what usually suffers most when recorded music is compared to live music since much more than timbre, frequency extension, soundstaging and all that audiophile stuff is where the music is.

I agree with cd318....assuming that we are in agreement re what “low quality” means. For me, most low quality turntables have speed stability issues. Some very expensive turntables regarded by some as “high quality” also have speed stability issues. For me, that also puts them in the “low quality” category no matter how massive, and impressive looking they may be. No matter how good the cartridge or arm mounted on one of these turntables the resulting sound, for me, will be “low quality”.  Conversely, a humble cartridge on a decent arm mounted on a turntable that has very good pitch stability (“high quality”) will always outperform the other....in the performance areas that matter most to me. Solid pitch stability is the number one consideration in a turntable system. That is what has the greatest impact on the rhythm and expression in the music in the grooves; even more so than tracking ability...up to a point of course.