Cart not parallel after Mint LP alignment?

Thanks guys - for all the responses.

As far as I can see with my eye - the cantilever is straight - however - without a precise measurement - and I must admit - my eyes were ready to pop out - how can I be absolutely sure? I will assume a precision product like the AT440MLa does in fact ship with a straight cantilever.

But - with the Zupreme and the lame screw set included with the AT...nothing like those tiny round nuts to drive me crazy - I probably didn't have the cart perfectly parallel to begin with and as the movement back and forth continues with the Mint - it ends up being "off".

If it's normal - I can live with it for now. The AT is fine piece but I am also considering an upgrade to the 2M Bronze shortly...with it's threaded body...I believe it will be much easier to get a tighter grip on the headshell and ultimately finer more precise movements against the Mint.

For you folks using the nuts/screws method...is it better to use the round nut or a hex that will "grab" against the cart body and provide a tighter "tighten".

For the record - my Mint - is specifically designed for this table. This was my first use of it and I am sure subsequent runs should be more precise.

Appreciate anything else that you can add.

Cheers!

VP

"Is your cart set up correctly according to the MintLP...the stylus hits both null points and the cantilever is parallel and centered between the MintLP's mirrored hash lines? If any of these are off, then the cart is not yet dialed in."

Tvad,

Well...the stylus tip is hitting the arc at the outermost possible point (off the platter) and the inner most point. Within this parameter - I am "eyeing" in the line with regards to the headshell...

However - the screws were giving me fits and once I got around to lining up the cantilever with the null points...I had to loosen the right screw and move the cart down to the right enough to get the cantilever to line up with the null points (when aligned via the parallax effect - I could clearly see two clear spaces on either side of the cantilever indicating a very good lineup.)

So that tells me one of three things...my "line" cart-to-headshell was off to begin with and just got more "off" as I proceeded...or the Mint LP math by design causes the cart body to be off parallel...or the cantilever is bent ever so slightly.

I am thinking if the cantilever position is perfect and is 100% parallel to the body - then the body should line up perfectly. Yes? No?

I look forward to your update...

Cheers!

VP

"Line up perfectly to what?"

To the headshell - of course. If everything is 100% true on the cart - especially cantilever to body - I should not have to tilt the cart on the shell. When the cantilever is exactly set between the nullpoints - the straight front of the cart body should be parallel to the straight front on the headshell.

And that exactly how it is for me - right up until I have to set the cantilever to the null points. The cart body is 100% straight when I set the initial "effective length". Everything looks straight - until that cantilever lineup phase...then the cart must be tilted "toe-out" to the right.

Another possibility is the Zupreme headshell itself. Not sure what Yip calls standard but I assume when he designs his tractors...he is using the standard Technics headshell to scribe those lines into the glass...not some third party shell. Perhaps the length, width or something else is playing into it?

I have been meaning to get a backup stylus anyway - so I will probably just get another 440 stylus from LP Gear. Seems to be the cheapest route and the only way to have a guaranteed new 100% parallel start point.

Cheers!

VP

Anyone comment on the "screw/nut" question...round nut or hexagon shape for best adjustment?

This is an erroneous assumption, IMO. I'm certain if you email Yip he will verify that he does not scribe the mirror's hash lines according to the headshell."

Tvad,

Thanks again for all the updates. I do appreciate your time. Regarding the Mint "process"...it's effective length first (ensuring the headshell "front" is exactly parallel to the cartridge head - Yip's words) and then null points...Inner first and then outer.

It's odd that you seem to think it's normal to have a slight rotation of the body when Yips actual instructions consistently remind the use that the headshell front and the cart head should remain in parallel thruout the entire procedure.

You would think he would make some mention of the fact that if it occurs "in some cases - your cartridge head may not line up with the headshell front" and say that it's okay...but he does not.

I did drop Yip a line with all my comments and questions. It will probably end up being driver error by me...or maybe I did actually bend this thing enough for it to be noticeable.

I will get it figured one way or another.

Cheers!

VP

All,

Thanks again for the all the feedback. I heard back from Yip - maker of the Mint LP Tractor and he did say that some degree of "twist" in the headshell "can" occur to obtain maximum alignment. He did not indicate in any way that it was "normal" however.

He also wants to see a phono of my setup to see how much "toe-out" is involved.

As far as the sound goes...after a number of sides that I am really familiar with - I am now starting to get a sense of a better blacker background etc.

I will continue to monitor this for the rest of the week but I agree with the "finicky" aspect of this and may attempt another alignment session on the weekend.

If the cartridge is not square in the shell, or leaning to me that means that the suspension of the cartridge may be "leaning".

See that's my thing too. While I understand the possibility - whilst ever so slight - that a toe-in/toe-out may play into a setup - something still doesn't sound right...we are dealing with products here that are built to very high tolerance and precision.

After dropping x amount of dollars on headshell, cart, table, Mint etc etc...I expect - no actually - I demand perfection. If this was a 20 dollar cart in a 40 dollar turntable - I wouldn't care one way or another.

FWIW - I do not see any "leaning" - the stylus is making correct contact...but I was reading up on a few other forums that it may be a simple as the stylus assembly (the AT440MLa uses a removable model) has a bit of "play" to it and simple bit of "persuasion" in the right direction make clear it right up.

This "play" is not evident to the naked eye...but when you get down to the micron level with this Mint LP (Actually - I think Yip's real agenda here is to prop up the optics industry :)) - even the smallest bit of pressure one way or another can make a huge difference in how that cantilever lines up under 8x magnification.

I am also looking at getting a replacement stylus as well...because in all my alignment adventures - and I have had many - I have never ever had to "toe" a cart one way or the other. Could be the precision of the Mint but I still think something else is up here....

Cheers!

VP

in case more reassurance is needed, I am hereby agreeing with Vinyladdict, Lewm, and Dougdeacon. If all you care about is getting the cartridge square with the headshell, you could have used the plastic jig that came with the Technics and saved a lt of money. The Mintlp is not just more precise than the Technics jig. It also uses a slightly different alignment geometry, which is why the cartridge must be twisted in relation to the headshell.

Reassurance duly noted. I am officially "past" the "square to the shell" question - but I am surprised how some people have reacted - like it's a federal crime to ask a question and try to understand all the angles. Uh - still learning over here, guys - everyday...sorry to not "know it all".

Anyhoo - now that I have spent a few evenings with this layout - and I am now getting comfy with it's "sound" - it's time to start comparing this setup - cart for cart - to another AT440MLa aligned using the standard Technics gauge.

Using the same 4 or 5 albums - I will play each album with the Minted cart first followed by another run with a standard aligned cart - to find out if there are the kind of differences to the level that some folks are claiming to hear.

Again - thanks again for the comments...

Cheers,

VP

Dear VP, I guess I did get a little exasperated. But for a while you did not seem to be reading or digesting the responses to your question, which from the get-go contained the information you needed.

I was reading and digesting everything. I did not say that I agreed with everything nor did I say that I was going to "run" with any of it.

In fact, you seemed determined to ignore the good advice you got. Anyway, there is a learning curve for all of us, and we all learn from each other and from direct experience.

Certainly wasn't ignoring any of the advice...more like collecting it and trying to understand it. Now I do.

That experience brought home to me the effect on cartridge alignment of choosing any one of the major different tonearm geometries, in a way that I had never before appreciated or even cared about.

See - this is what I just reconciled after pouring through this stuff. Until I got the Mint - I never knew a cantilever from a bar of Level soap. I always thought - with all these protractors - if your stylus tip hits the arc at all points - you are golden. Better yet - jam the cart into the Technics jig..adjust and start rockin' 2 minutes later.

I apologize for sounding cranky. Glad you are on the right track at this point.

No prob...the comparison should be fun.

Cheers!

VP

I look forward to your findings in comparing the two alignments. I haven't read of anyone ever doing this before. But I wouldn't be surprised if the differences are pretty minor.

Well - so far - I have had this alignment rolling since thr weekend...and I am still not hearing the audio nirvana that others are touting - hence - the comparison. I figured I would stay as identical as I could...only changing headshells after each side.

We old, hardbitten audio vets have a habit of hyperbole, I'm afraid. And we often make what others would consider minor changes seem like they are night-and-day. If you do hear a difference, I also wouldn't be surprised if are unable to determine whether one alignment is clearly "better" than the other. As in many comparisons, "different" doesn't always mean "better."

The hardbitten audio crowd just wants to feel important much of the time. I am just as guilty as others within certain areas of so called "expertise"...

I relate this "alignment" area with the same general skepticism that I have toward audio cables. Nary has there been a single area in the history of electronics that is filled with more snake oil, scams and skullduggery. However - if you feel that a 500 set of cables makes your music better or brings you more enjoyment - then so be it.

Very similar circumstance here. We all interpret and hear things completely different from one another. After all is said and done - the alignment that gives me what I am looking for - from my music - enjoyment wise - is the right one. And despite what some folks believe - it may end up being the white little jig. Or it may be a very expensive precision protractor.

Also of primary concern - is value vs. effort. If the mint doesn't give me an immediate and noticeable difference in "enjoyment factor"...it is not worth the C note that I paid for it when a 4 cent plastic jig gets me 90% of the way there in less than 2 minutes.

As I get older and crankier - I guess my time is worth just as much as money...and spending hours and hours messing around with this thing makes little sense if the rewards are not obvious.

Whatever happened to 1979? I buy an SL-D2 turntable at Kelly's Stereo Mart...have the guy slap in a 40 dollar Audio Technica cartridge. Plug it into my Pioneer SA-3800...whip out a Rush album and rock on?

Throughout my entire formative years - I never heard of a protractor or had an alignment gauge of any kind. Never seemed to bother me then - and given my enjoyment of music back then vs the endless "tech" tweakin' going on today...I sometimes feel like I spend way to much time dickin' around with the gear instead of just enjoying the music.

Cheers!

VP

do their own research about what I think is basic cartridge alignment before coming here with threads on how/why their cart is twisted in the headshell. If the OP had done that, we wouldn't be getting this attitude of how it must be all of us who are just bleating sheep with no ears or minds of our own.

Dan,

I came here to try and do some learning on my new protractor and it's alignment. You are making it sound like we are not allowed to post on this forum until we have done 100 hours on "community" alignments or similar.

For the record - I have been doing alignments for years - yet I am not familiar with a cartridge NOT being straight in the headshell and found this whole concept to fly in the face of thousands of bits of info I have read over the years.

As mentioned way earlier in the thread - I "get" the fact that using the cantilever as a guide can indeed make the cart body sit a little canted. But then I took this theory a step further and asked myself - what if the stylus tip itself is not square to the cantilever? If that's the case - then this whole exercise of microscopic lineup can be pointless. The Mint LP tractor can be useless...in fact all protractors can be useless.

Therefore - I can also understand the point of Rauliruegas and others who say...pick your line and if it sounds good - it sounds good.

Not sure about some folks - but I didn't get into audio to get math lessons for parabolas, arcs and null points. And as much as I have found this experience to be interesting - I have also found that it's making me seriously second guess everything after each round of adjustments - instead of just enjoying the gear and vinyl.

To wit - this week I picked up a brand new 2M Blue and because this "mint lp" ordeal left such a pain in my eye and a feeling like my trig homework wasn't done - I went old school - stuck it on the SL-1210M5G using the Technics overhang gauge. And it sounds excellent. Took two minutes to setup....

I am still testing the pair of AT440MLa...one "minted" and the other not. Details on that when I get a little more time...

Cheers!

VP