Cart not parallel after Mint LP alignment?


Howdy,

So after reading about 1000 paragraphs on how good the Mint LP Tractor is - I purchased one and had a marathon session yesterday with my new SL-1210 M5G, AT440MLa and Zupreme headshell...

After all was said and done - the alignment itself took 90 hard minutes - I am finding the cartridge sitting about 5-7 degrees "right" of center. The actual cantilever and stylus are about as dead on as I wanna go with it for now.

Now a comment and a question....

Question: Is this non-parallel result in the headshell normal? It's making me think I may have a bent cantilever or something.

Comment: I have run 10-12 sides thru the rig so far and I must say - I have not yet heard the "revelation" that others have described when comparing their alignments to other protractors or even the white Technics alignment gauge. The rig sounds good...but...what I am missing here.

I must temper the above by saying I have changed phono stages frequently in the last month as well...I was getting nicely familiar with a Bellari VP-130 and then moved that for a Cambridge which lasted less than a week and I now have a Moon LP3 with maybe 25 hours on it...Even my AT440MLa might have 40-50 hours on it as well....

I am thinking that a whole bunch of stuff might need to "burn" in before the system starts to really reveal itself.

But I am very concerned with the stylus/cantilever on the cart...even with all the moves the Mint required...I expected the cartridge to sit straight in the headshell...perhaps expecting too much?

Appreciate any feedback.

Cheers!

VP
vocalpoint

Showing 12 responses by rauliruegas

Dear friends: In the Timeltel Calculator link we can choose DIN, IEC or Typical Groove radius standards.

The IEC standards are the ones choosed by the Enjoy The Music Calculator.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Audioquest4life: No, the Calculators give you both null points.

Due what the geometry model ( equations ) we choose then we have to accept: lower distortions out the null points with higher distortions between null points or higher distortions out the null points and lower distortions inside the null points.

In the Enjoy the Music calculator you can see on the graphic what I'm talking about on those null points.

Now, the distortion level between those little different geometry equations are really low and maybe we can't hear it.

As I point out the accuracy of our cartridge/tonearm set up is what could makes the differences, but in this imperfect analog world that is surrounded by so many parameters/factors that could affect that set up this task is very complex: example what I posted about the set up of the cantilever in static and dynamic status, which " road " we have to take here? and with the VTA/SRA changes.

We have to be on the " middle " of the whole process because if not we can hear/enjoy music because almost anything we change we have to re-set the whole process: endless process one and again.

Each one of us have to decide with which trade offs we can live.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear friends: I would like to share my opinion on some different tonearm/cartridge geometry set up subjects.

IMHO the MintLP protractor is not magic or the perfect protractor that per se change what you was hearing through your cartridge.

It sounds different?, certainly. Because is better? certainly NOT.
So what's all about?, many things like: that your non MintLP cartridge set up was wrong, that you like it more the distortions/colorations of what you heard through the MintLP, that through the MintLP set up now the cartridge has a right set up, that even that your non MintLP is right you like more the MintLP trade-offs, etc, etc.

There are almost an infinite different tonearm/cartridge geometry set up, it depends what targets we want to achieve, example: less tracking distortion/error at inner grooves, less tracking distortion/error between null points, average at both " sides ", etc, etc.
We can't achieve the lesser/lower inner grooves distortion/error an at the same time the lesser/lower between null points distortion/error we always have a trade-off.
Now, we can choose between Löfgren A, Löfgren B, Baerwald, Stevenson, Pisha, etc, etc. Which better?, depend what you are looking for.
To make more complex what we choose and before take either equations method we can choose two different parameters necessaries on those equations to make calculations and obtain: both null points, offset angle and overhang, I'm refering to: Inner Groove Radius and Outer Groove Radius.
Any change in these parameters change the final cartridge set up parameters: overhang, offset angle and null points.

To " live " what I'm telling here you can take the Calculator that Timetel linked and compare it against the Calculator that you can find in www.enjoy the music.com.

In both Calculators you can find Löfgren choice and if you made calculations taking Löfgren equations you will find different results due that both Calculators even that are for Löfgren has different Inner Groove Radius and Outer Groove Radius.

Some one posted here that with MintLP there is no inner groove distortion, well that he does not heard it not say that the inner groove distortion is there and only goes lower but against higher distortions between the null points: nothing is perfect and this is part of the trade offs I'm talking. Your choice.

My own experiences tell me that if we really take care about trying to be accurate as we can be in the cartridge set up the differences between what " geometry " we choose are really low and don't have to worry which method we have to choose. All them have trade-offs.

Why the MintLP seems to us better when it is not?, IMHO because when we use it what we do we do with more accuracy, example: several other protractors does not fit exactly with the spindle TT where the MintLP fit exactly with no " play " this means accuracy where in other protractors here exist an error tiny error but less accuracy.

The tonearm/cartridge set up is very important subject especially when our audio system has high distortions elsewhere. As lower distortions have an audio system as less capacity we have to discern between different methods on cartridge/tonearm set up geometry.

Now, I agree with the people that say that we have to take more time to enjoy music than on hardware/set up.
Why I agree?, easy: every time we change VTA/SRA we have to reset all what we already do on the cartridge/tonearm set up, every time we change the VTF we have to reset, even when we change the azymuth we have to reset. So when have we time to heard our recordings?

To make it more complex: all of us think that we have to align the cartridge cantilever and not the cartridge body on the protractor and this seems " a priori " the right way to go.
Dear friends please take a cartridge with a tiny ( tiny but significant enough for we can see it by eyes. ) cantilever deviation that when you put on the protractor ( static condition. ) you can see the cantilever deviation. Then run it on any recording and what you can see is that that tiny deviation disappear, that in dynamic way the cantilever maybe for the tracking forces in the recording is automatic aligned!! and what happen with our static protractor set up where we made it with that cantilever deviation but in dynamic status there is no more tiny cantilever deviation!!!??????

Not easy task what we have in this truly analog extremely imperfect world and even in this imperfection we love it!!!

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Here is the other Calculator: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/freestuff.htm

at thje end of the page you can download the Löfgrenn Calculator and can compare results against the Timeltel Calculator link.

Raul.
Dear friends: Now you have the Löfgren A/B and Stevenson Calculators. If any one else is interested on Baerwald please email me and I will give you.

Maybe it is time to build our own protractors and choose with " geometry " works/match our each one priorities and you don't have to pay 100.00+ for it: free stuff!

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Srwooten: I use it in three different tonearms in friend's systems, not in my system.

Btw, IMHO there is no black magic or moon rocket " secret " in tonearm/cartridge accurate set up like some people think.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Dan_end: All over the Agon forum has a lot of posts where people are talking of the MintLP " magic " ( or similar words. ) where there are only different kind of distortions, there is no magic at all.

In the other side, why are you so " delicated " on what I posted or post?, if you don't like it or agree or even if you has nothing to learn or share through then just ignore it: why affect you so much?, seems to me that you have a ressentiment against me, if you have it just grow up and make that whatever you have on your brain just: disappear in good " health " because IMHO your posts about are not helping any one, even you. ?????????!!!

Btw, thank's for the people emails and words for the request of the Barwald Calculator, always are welcome.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Vocalpoint: +++++ " I "get" the fact that using the cantilever as a guide can indeed make the cart body sit a little canted. But then I took this theory a step further and asked myself - what if the stylus tip itself is not square to the cantilever? If that's the case - then this whole exercise of microscopic lineup can be pointless. " +++++

you are right.

The rule/myth that we have to make the cartridge alignment with the cantilever not the body is only a myth because what you point out and because like I posted when the cantilever deviation is not so " wide " and when the cartridge/cantilever is in " motion/dynamic status " ( playing a recording. ) against static status when is on the protractor the cantilever in motion is " centered " to the body so makes no sense to align the cantilever in the protractor but the cartridge body because in motion the cantilever is centered to the cartridge body.

So, all the people that made the cartridge alignment through the cantilever maybe are wrong because that alignment was made it in static cantilever/cartridge status instead that in real/true cartridge/cantilever position in motion.
Maybe is better to align in the " old " orthodox way: with the cartridge body instead cantilever.

In the other side that people likes the distortions that are hearing with the alignment today have does not means is right.

and don't forget that every time ( for the purist/perfeccionist that change every record side or every record track. ) you change VTA/SRA you have to re-align if you want to be where you was before the VTA/SRA change.

I think that we can but we can't be so perfeccionist on the subject ( just like with VTA/SRA ) because we need time to enjoy music, then we have to take some " average " accurate each one " roads " to make that: hear and enjoy the music, that IMHO is the main reason why we are " here "!!!!!

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Lewm: +++++ " do you really think a bent cantilever straightens itself out under dynamic conditions of playing an LP? " +++++

I don't think it I already tested on three different cartridges and that's what happen. Maybe not on all cartridges with all kind of deviation. So we have to test first than make the alignment.
If you have one why don't you try it and see for your self?

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear VP: We on the MM/MI long thread start/follow ( last 12 post there. ) your thread subject.
Could be interesting to read about. This is one of my posts there on the subject:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openflup&2114&4#2114

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Vinyladdict: Those null points values depend of what standards was used for the whole calculations: DIN or IEC, the null points you obtain are different in each case.
Even you can choose your own " standard ".

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.