The best place to seek advice on the Fisher is the AudioKarma website. There's a army of Fisher freaks on there.
Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil
I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.
I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.
There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)
In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)
So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.
1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.
Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.
So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.
different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.
All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!
Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.
For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?
When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)
The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.
The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.
I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.
There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)
In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)
So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.
1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.
Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.
So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.
different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.
All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!
Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.
For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?
When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)
The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.
The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.
Showing 7 responses by wavetrader
Here's another cap shootout....I agree totaly about the BG's and the Nichicon...as far as the Elna's I haven't tried the cerafine or silmic's yet. Recapping a Fisher will be a adventure... http://highend.projektas.lt/?tipstricks/6 |
My experience is that with these ultra low noise caps...they are real sensitive to power quality. Maybe a hard wired component will suffice....but I have converted all my vintage to IEC 3 prong receptacles. I would not use a hard wired component....Now Mac users would disagree but with my vintage Accuphase....made me a beleiver... |
You might find this interesting....Kevin Hayes being interviewed in Stereophile had this comment on the Fisher.... "I've been an audiophile since before I knew what the word meant, going back to the mid-'70s. I had an epiphany when I first heard a piece of old tubed gear, a Fisher X101, that simply blew away a highly touted receiver that I happened to own. It was a 25W integrated amplifier, using 7591s on the output, and except for sustained organ-pedal notes, it was far better than what I had at that time." Now I can really relate to what you have experienced with the Ultra low noice caps...I have the same expience with my SS electronics using black gate caps. I now use the BG preamp with the rest of my system. I continue to upgrade all my components except for my Vac's....but will do eventualy. I am trying to get my system ready for a assualt on my speakers....I have upgraded all my IC's,PC's and speaker cable.....the backgound is the blackest I have heard my system sound....Everything litterly pops out and there is no longer any imbalance in the sound....plus my CD's sound remarkable. On the Chinatown soundtrack even "I can't get started with you" sounds great. I continue to follow your saga....To recommend a amp the 300B Vac's are certainly dead quiet and highly linear. The only downside if there is such...tubing these are expensive but the used market seems to reflect this in the pricing....good luck. |
Your Blue note recording from '58 was probably recorded on a Ampex 3 channel. I find my best CD's are recorded around 58-63?....Verve Porgy & Bess with Ella and Louie A. is just a great recording. These Cast Duelunds have had such a profound effect....I recently switched the PC on my C200 preamp from a NBS master to a NBS pro..the difference was jaw dropping. So there are many things to do to bring "pop" to recorded music or remove the recording from the music. Funny thing I have a lot of the older fantasy recordings on CD....on my system they sound great...on a buddys system they sound embarrasingly bad... |
Volley...I'm sorry....I meant your experiment seems to have had a profound effect on your system. I have made many changes....low esr capacitors to my electronics but no changes yet to my crossovers. I'm using a NBS Professional PC on my Accuphase C200 pre. My buddy's system is not at the same level...very good but...could be better if he upgraded his cabling....his electronics aren't voiced correctly IMHO...but he has modded the amplifiers to lower the noise floor....Always a good step. |
Volley...late 50...early 60's....anything done by Rudy VanGelder or Orin Keepnews. A good demonstration disk is "Inside Betty Carter" Half the disc is totaly awesome...probably done on a Ampex and the other half is kinda flat. Another point is during this period using Ampex with custom mixing boards was the hot ticket and the bandwith was big along with orchestras and vocalists on the same stage.....Sinatra & Basie,Tony Bennet,Jack Jones,EllaFitzgerald,Miles ect....classical all the living stereo,mercury,london phase4....Have these enormous soundstage and dynamics.....One of my favorites is a Marco Polo Cd "captain blood" with music by Korngold and others...just a beautiful piece....In fact I recently started collecting older soundtracks on CD....Koch has one with Miklas Roza's El Cid the organ music is spectacular. There's a lot of great CD stuff out there... All this dubbed crap stinks....I like the older recordings they knew what the hell they were doing. Back in the late 50's and 60's most of the big strars wouldn't go near a studio if it wasn't tubes....The word was out SS didn't have the bandwith...sorry for the rant... |