I did find more interesting reads on Steen on the Duelund website. That he made all his findings public for everyone to use to improve audio shows where his heart was.
The sound is mind staggering. Stormen please come on and tell me the CAST ones are not much better! I find myself going and looking at them far too much!
Like both Tony Gee and Tempo said you can't even imagine how good they must be???? |
Stringreen it has been a long time since I played. In the air I can still sound pretty good! Stringreen I can't even read music anymore can't even help my daughter with her piano.
But I do have the caps that make a viola sound like a viola! To be honest until those caps went in I never played "air viola/violin" as I find most speakers leave a lot to be desired with stringed instruments. The vintage caps in Eleanor Rigby the cello dominates over the violin. (barely heard) On the Duelund's the Violin player is clearly the star. (hence me playing "air violin" everyone want to be the star just kidding) There is even a pair of violin's behind the main player and behind that the cello or ('s) It was that song that left me sold on Duelund's which were "light years" better than the vintage caps and left me wondering how much am I missing?
I expect the mids to not be as huge as change and woofer inductors even less just because it is tougher the higher the freq. |
Thanks Stormen I was afraid you would say that! I am looking to get the inductor in cast. Would that make sense? Duelund's cheaper inductor is not solid so I can see a big difference there? (possible vibration)
I have found even the VSF's needed some break-in. The first was a revalation the 2nd in the circuit took a little while to settle in.
Yesterday I actually went up to the speaker to cup the tweeter to see if working. There is no grain letting you know it is on.
I have said to friends about Steen's feelings on 50% of the speaker in the crossover and 25% of the system. The response is generally a little hostile to the notion to say the least. I do find ideas in audio are slow to change. Linn when they came out with the Keel people (Linn people) wnet crazy at the cost.
Yet Linn did the double test of cheap Adikt $500 Akito $1500 tonearm Keel $2700 (I think) was better than Akiva $3500 Ekos SE $5k
By this I just mean people were Ok with an expensive cartridge Ok with a costly tonearm but in principle against a costly piece of aluminum. I think the same thoughts go against caps and inductors.
I own a Adikt and would put the money into even better caps than a Akiva as the caps last a very long time. |
Hi Stringreen
I have contacted Klipsch to buy replacement crossovers of the originals. Klipsch does not sell caps for them. They sent me to the aftermarket guys like Bob Crites, Dean and Al K. All very nice guys. I did buy Bob's Sonicaps as a replacment.
I am only replacing the parts with same value parts and quality of original or better. The Duelund's are the first caps to make me forget the originals in every way.
I too was hooked the first time I heard Khorns. I have owned the Lascala's for almost 30 years and was almost in tears when the caps went bad. The Duelund's are a no plastic cap and better the originals (at least in the tweeters and mids are coming) in EVERY way!
Stringreen it is stringed instruments that sound out of this world! I used to play Viola (school orchestra long time ago) and since the caps are changed I am spending a lot of time playing air viola! |
Dgarretson
I have talked to Chris about this as Alpha Core was top on my list.
He did say they sell many more D caps than inductors. I can not comment on the Alpha Core compared to vintage. In my mind one would want to spend more on tweeter caps than woofer inductors as the high freq is so much harder to get right.
Stormen where are you? Stormen did say the difference was big in inductors. The Duelund is certainly much better built as it is CAST and has zero vibration.
I do hear where you are coming from dgarretson. I remember reading somewhere in some Linn writings about vinyl and the stylus and how much tougher it was to pick up say a violin freq compared to a bass freq. The magnitude was shocking! It lead you to believe that you could error much more on the low freq than high.
So my next $ after mid caps are to try the CAST tweeter caps. If all goes well I may just buy the CAST inductor more out of repect to Duelund (for what they have done to my system) than any real gain coming. (compared to Alpha Core)
I can say the Duelund's have made my other speakers unlistenable. I am ticked in that sense that I wanted a system for the livingroom (and got one) as my Klipsch will never get there (they are in the basement) as my wife hates the looks of them. (can't blame her)
I am a LP12 fan and was planning on getting a Trampolin II maybe next and did believe the Linn theory that source is the most important.
I now have moved any Linn upgrades down below new caps for the Linn speakers. I also have doubts on Linn's cost effective Aktiv upgrades. I know they work. They do electronic crossover and remove the passive ones. I am just wondering if say Mundorf Supreme caps could do the same thing for wayyyyy less cost then two more expensive amps and crossovers?
I have moved into Steen's line of thinking. I have been there actually for awhile. (as I enjoy my Klipsch with vintage tube amp and fairly cheap CD player better than the better source better pre and better amp as the speakers seem the weak link) Linn's theory is good source cheap speakers beats poorer source better speakers. I do not know if I agree with that anymore. (well I know I don't)
Steen's with 50% of the system being the speakers. (Johnk you have to like that!) Steen saying that 50% of the speaker should be the crossover just upsets people!
So Dgarretson you may be right that AlphaCore inductors might be almost as good? But should we treat crossovers so lightly in this hobby? or is Steen right? I know you guys have not heard it and can be skeptical but I know I will never treat crossover (and caps) as some non important issue. In my mind the crossover has moved wayyyy up in importance. |
Dgarretson.
I do take with a grain of salt what the manufacture says of what is important. I know Linn said source was everything as they had top rated sources. (so of course they would say that)
I do not know what the mid caps will do. But I have put resources into other areas such as Lingo power supply, Cirkus bearing, Ekos MkII tonearm (better pre-amps and amps) and not one thing I have done has been as big as the caps. So is it exotic or cost effective upgrading? One thing I can say is I believe Steen was very much an audiophile than a guy looking to make a ton of money. The fact that he gave away all of his findings saying he would not be able to bring them all to commercialization lets you know where his heart was.
Dgarretson I do believe that him saying 25% of a system should be in the crossover is controversial. (who else has ever said such a number!) It does open things up to good healthy debate as to where we should put our money in audio. No matter what audio is surely better when guys like him question what is the excepted norm.
Dgarretson if by saying a Viking Stove in track housing you mean to much $ into the crossover realitive to the rest of system?
If one spent (based on new prices) set of Khorns $8k a $3k source $3k pre $3k amp and wires IC etc you would have $20k into a system. The you put in a $200 crossover network. So that would be 1% of the budget. Is that not like putting $29 Walmart tires on a Ferrari???
When you say exotic to me that means crazy amounts of money for realitively small improvements. Audio is filled with that stuff! $10k cartridges that don't sound any different than $3k ones. (at least to me) I assure you I have no interest or money for that! I am only spending until I stop hearing huge improvemnts. If I order the CAST Duelund's and they fail to improve the system to the point where I feel I would have been better with money elsewhere I will be the first to admit it. |
Dgarretson
I have taken to heart what you said. I am going to burn in the Mundorf products for the next couple weeks. That will help determine is the $ improvement the best bang for the buck of anything I could do.
You are right one Duelund was huge improvement, two in same same circuit does not double performance but almost double's cost. (over Mundorf Supreme) You are right that there may be another area where $'s are better spent than second Duelund. Johnk says better tweeters. I will be ready with all caps fully burned in by the time the mid caps come over from Denmark. |
Interesting note.
Ask the youngest daughter (the one who asks to go and sit in a stereo store for 2 hours no complaints listening to music) freaked the salesman out he just kept looking at her like what is she doing? I asked what she though of upstairs speakers she made a crinkly face (like static) and said the (Klipsch she meant) sound much better.
So I asked her for left and right speaker she had a puzzled look like what's the difference?
So that's when I started listening to both speakers same time. No timing issues. She is right in a way they do sound the same. The Duelund's are a wayyyy lower noise version of the same thing. But shouldn't they be as they are both the same style? Neither has plastic. The vintage are wild but "real" and the Duelund's are civilized much more detailed and yet still "real".
But the common thread is both sound "real" instruments on neither sound like plastic. Is this what Steen was really doing modernizing an old idea? He was a fan of vintage caps. |
Dgarretson, I guess it comes down to how good do I think the basic Klipsch design is? I believe very good. Arthur Salvatore website's eval's new and vintage gear. He only recomends three vintage speakers. The highest of all is the Khorn. This is competing against speakers costing many times more. (some up to 100k)
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Vintage.html#Other
quote from him
"Only three speaker designs of the distant past can hold up to todayÂ’s models in my opinion, the original Quad Electrostatic, the KLH Model Nine Electrostatic and the post 1970's Klipschorn"
He had moved the Khorns down from (the very strict credentials) to Class C (upper) from Class B. (by far the cheapest speaker in the range)
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Speakers.html#ClA
Arthur does say at some point he would love to hear a all out set of Khorns. Well I can assure a Duelund set is MILES better than any stock one. Enough to move them back up to Class "A" I am not sure but it is huge!
Dgarretson, I can hear your snicker at my system being not "balanced".
I am very much a person who believes in balance not $. My system as I said was an LP12, Lingo, Cirkus, Ekos II and Adikt. I know Linn guys who say why do you have a cheap (realative) cartridge on such an expensive arm. My answer is that is what the dealer has recomended to keep in "balance" and that a Keel would be better money spent than expensive MC. My pre is a Linn Kairn which is made to work with the amp which is a Linn Klout and the Lp12. Those three were made for each other. My IC are all Linn my speaker wire is all Linn.
So do I seem like a guy who goes nuts in one area? My system would be text book balanced by Linn. (the sound I like) My main speakers (well they were my main) were Linn as well. Do I think them the greatest speakers no! But a well balanced system will deliver much more for much less $. (everything single thing I own was made to work in unison with the other component)
I am a very cautious person who does not go off half cocked on a crazy idea. I really believe Steen was on to something here with the crossover being of immense importance. |
Duelund in the context of other upgrades?
Dgarretson I have had one Duelund and one Supreme (both with 60hrs by now) I switched back to two Duelunds and the difference is very big indeed.
Instruments sound much, much more real and you lose an etched sound you get with the Supreme's.
Comparable from going from the NAD CD player ($600) to Linn Karik. The Karik is not worth much today so on a cost basis it is not expensive either. So if you compare another set of Duelund caps vs. a new Karik $3k+ (new) slam dunk, new caps. If you compare to a used $500-$700 Karik it is more interesting but I would still go for the caps. The Karik's are cheap and no longer in service by Linn and could break at any time and be largely worthless. I would hope the cap upgrade last for 20 years. (I used to think the Karik quite lousy compared to LP12 and it collected dust mostly)
What the caps do is make things sound more focused and wayyyy more real.
I would be real curious to here the person who put in Duleund's and thought them good but not worth the $? |
Thanks Undertow
I wish Tempo eval'ed Clarity as well. As it is nice to have two opinions. I found the Supreme's much better than Sonicaps and Tony did not rate them much higher? All of our ears are slightly different. I found the dynamics alone worth the price for the Supreme's.
But Tony does not talk about that? (except in the congestion as how one cap is less or more congested) |
I can not argue much with you at all on the Karik. Like I said myself I did not think it really that good at all. It was so far below my LP12 and I did not have the funds to pursue two top end front ends. Yes the Adikt is entry level cartridge but Linn's advice is Keel/Akito (much cheaper arm than mine)/Adikt. Linn says this betters no Keel Ekos MKII Akiva. So following their line get the table up to snuff then arm then cartridge.
The Kairn is a 2003 or 04 one of the last made. So the Kairn to be much bettered would be the Klimax and that would be a big jump. The Klout is very highly regarded (amongst Linnies) and was the flagship amp until Klimax came out and still holds up quite well today.
As for the Duelund's being rated AAA++ and better than everything else I have, I can not argue there either. But it makes the crossover a area I do not have to go back to and upgrade later because it has become a weakness.
One thing that I do feel comfortable with is I do love the speakers as I have had them for almost 30 years and with this I hope to get another 20 years out of them. So 50 years out of the same speakers is not bad? I have friends who have went through tons of speakers.
Thanks Dgarretson
Make it on your list of things to do is to try even just one cap in your crossover (tweeter) and tell me if you can go back? There was a guy long ago on this thread said (to me) you at least owe it to yourself to at least hear a Duelund. Now I am singing the same tune. |
Dgarretson, Do you know anyone who has tried there IC's?
I am NOT getting them as I will be tapped out for awhile but just curious.
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?cablintr&1222474219 |
Today I find out if I was right on vintage amps. I have the Jensen Copper paper tube caps and am going to start putting them in.
I expect a quieter (less resonance) and more dynamics compared to tiny vintage. We'll see? |
Stormen while your here I sure could use some advice on inductors. Are Duelund's that much better than vintage and do inductors make a huge difference?
I have to put the order in today. (a couple of hours)
I know the caps I want but inductors???? The old ones are iron core but wrapped in something to stop vibration
Thanks |
Just spent a hour upstairs with the Linn system. My kids who play in the basement have being singing along with the Klipsch for awhile now. My wife who was downstairs was singing as well. (Beatles CD burn in) That is a first for her!
Today when upstairs the kids said Dad can you turn that off!!?? That sounds terrible! My youngest will sit and listen to music a long time for a young kid. I asked her which stereo she liked better and she just looked at me with a stupid look and pointed her thumb down. (meaning downstairs)(they have no idea of my preferences)
I feel when upstairs I can hear someone in the background saying attention Walmart shoppers. (over the Linn system)
So Dgarretson to qualify
I would take a NAD cd player (worth about $20) the Fisher x100d (which is the same as a Fisher 500c without the tuner I think paid $300) and 30 year old Klipsch Lascala's with the Duelund's (and I do not even have the mid caps) hands down with out a doubt over the Linn system.
The Linn speakers sound hard, with crazy amounts of white noise!
My Linn dealer who says when they loan out or sell equipment (not just Linn but whoever) the customer will often say I can tell it's much better than I had. They say give it a couple of weeks and then put the old piece back in. The customer always is "shocked" when the old piece goes back in.
By this I mean getting Duelund's was a massive upgrade. The real "shocker" is when you go back to what you had. (I can go upstairs different system and just shift to the other speaker as well to hear all original) |
Friend stopped by and had a listen.
He owns a set of Klipsch Heresy I's and plays guitar as well. (but not big into audio)
First 10 minutes he liked the vintage caps. He liked the "fuller sound". It was a sound he was used to. He has heard these speakers for more than 25 years. At first he did not know what to make of the changes. He kept saying you can pick out every instrument. (new caps)
After 30 minutes and getting acustomed he said you can pick out the whole orchestra. He said classical music lovers would go nuts. (but was still in the vintage camp for rock)
After about an hour he just kept shaking his head and saying I can not believe caps can do that! I just can not believe it!
He said making the motion of wrapping a peice of paper in to a ball and throwing it. (that is what the vintage sound like just krinkle it all up and through like garbage.
He is more excited than I am about the mid cap. He figures he will pick up everything from his guitar favourites.
He said vintage caps instruments never sounded like the actual instrument. At first he did like the pleasing tones of the vintage caps and that sound was always there even if you had no idea what is was coming from.
He also said if that was just the tweeter caps the speakers would be unrecognisable from original once the midcaps went in. |
After the friend left it made me start to think about speakers.
After I had installed the Sonicaps I was shocked at how the Klipcsh sounded like every other speaker? Whatever I had come to know after all these years was changed by caps. I did not understand how that could be?
When the friend said when he first heard them tonight he said he liked the vintage caps better. It was what he was used to (as he has Heresy's) and the sound was so different to him it confused him.
Where is the bass he said? (typical comment of low to mid-fi listeners view bass as a thump not some instrument) After awhile he said there is bass but only when someone is playing a bass and when they are not it is done. In fact he said there is only the sound of the instrument or nothing.
He said the vintage caps were like listening to a guitar amp and hitting the distortion pedal. Sometimes some pleasing tones but nothing was right. (full and distorted)
At first he thought the Duelund's sounded like a studio (recording) and the vintage were like "live". Near the end of the hour his frustration grew with the vintage.
The last half hour he just sat there shaking his head. He said I have heard the song all my life yet never heard it. He said that is just "phenomenal". |
Sherod
I am going over to his house for visit. He left here last night shaking his head talking about going home and listening to some of his albums.
Wife was up today at 8am and had the music cranked! That has happened NEVER in 15 years together.
More normal was when she came home she would say turn that down. Man that was frustrating. The only time I could have it loud was when she wasn't home or was drinking!
Here is a possible side benefit guys and I am sure many of you have similiar wives. I think women hear different. "A Day in the Life" Beatles (personal Beatles fav) In the car right when it gets going she would always turn it down. Man did that piss me off! Like turning down art. (caused more than one arguement) To me a masterpiece to her just a pile of noise at the end. I think men we hear what the guy was trying to do and women hear what it is and in a car stereo it is not good!
So to me it is worth $1500 on parts if she stops bugging me to turn it down!
Kind of just kidding but for 12 years she has bugged me to get rid of those ugly Klipsch. When I got the attractive Linn she cared more about getting rid of the Klipsch.
Just today she said why don't you get rid of the Linn speakers. No more bugging me about getting rid of the Klipsch. (that's worth something too)
So the moral is you can keep ugly speakers as long as the wife likes the sound! (and they are not in the living room) |
Duelund
Sound is the same? |
Holy Crap John 19ft!
Your wife and SET? Hmmmm Care to speculate why? I know (or should say hear) that with tubes vs. SS it is odd vs. even harmonic distortion. So even if a tube amp measures worse it sounds better. With SET how much power and how did you power all those horns?
Very interesting about your son.
In Autism as I understand it the mind becomes very attuned to some areas. Do you think his area was because you are interested in music/speakers? Seen a show once of an autistic guy who flew over Rome in a plane and drew the whole city. (from memory) |
For those who read this in the future and are thinking of a capacitor repair/upgrade.
For me there was some very good sites like Tony Gee's cap review. But what I found hard even after reading his review is what that would mean to me? He says his test based strictly on sound quality and not price. To me that opens a can of worms. That is how I ended up with three of his favs, the budget Sonicap (bang for the buck) Mundorf's seemingly on everyone's list and Duelund's the 12.5 out of 10 according to Tony (best ever tested) vs. the 8.5 Sonicaps at 1/20th the cost.
I read so much about caps it made me sick of caps! Then I just ordered the 4 kinds. (plus having the originals) After realizing I would have to hear for myself.
What I did find out is that the sound difference from one cap to another is nothing short of huge!
To relate the difference to other purchases. One's I class as huge. (Duelund vs. vintage is huge and in the range of these changes)
I owned a Mitsubishi LT20 (lousy turntable big $) then demo'ed against a Rega P3 (budget but real and not a toy) Mine sounded broken!
Getting Lascala's as a kid compared to Sanyo speakers was huge as well.
So Duelund's would rank in the top three biggest upgrades I have ever done.
Big upgrades (Duelund was bigger than these but these were big to me)
1. First Linn cartridge
2. Lp12 (first one)
3. First Linn pre-amp and amp coming from Japanese
Pretty big upgrades (clearly noticeable)
1. Linn Klout from LK series
2. Going to an almost loaded LP12 from basic one on comparison head to head old one was slow and antique sounding. But dimishing returns here. A lot more money
Good upgrades (but now you better have better ears than my friend) (some people would say huge but some people can hardly hear these
1. Linn Kairn from Kolektor
2. Linn Karik Cd from NAD
Upgrades but things that take two or three times comparing and most likely to notice on your system.
1. Went from 18guage to Monster cable 25 years ago. (that was the start of cable makes a difference at the time that was new some thought it was bull)
2. Went from dirt cheap (throw in) IC's with NAD to moderate IC's like $70
Upgrades that to me are crazy
1. Went to bi-amping Linn Klouts (total waste of money in my mind and a lot of $) To me the biggest disapointment ever for the $.
Hope this helps in what caps mean to a regular guy.
Another thing to consider is what do you like. I am love the LP12 sound which many consider to be colored. My speakers are horns which are very dynamic. (some would say colored) So I am from that camp for sure.
Many who liked the Sonicaps heard them as neutral and see other caps as colored.
The friend who heard the speakers thinks in terms of bass, punch, tones, sounding live etc. Until yesterday he never thought all those sounds were coming from an instrument.
So now I know why some guys seek out vintage caps. Vintage oil filled have MASSIVE distortion. This may sound like an insult but it is not if you like a rock concert sound. The vintage caps distortion is not an all bad distortion. The down side is low resolution and EVERYTHING sounds like a concert even when it is not supposed to.
So if you listen to AC/DC or hard rock music you may not want to say with vintage caps. (although you are stuck with everything sounded like a stadium)
What the Duelund's do is remove a HUGE layer of noise and reverb and allow you to see into the music.
I can now hear the distortion the mid caps are doing. Sounds from that range are sloppy and distorted and I can not wait for the caps to get here.
Another huge benefit I did not see coming is the Lascala's have wayyyy more bass. (which I thought the lack of was in the speaker design but that was caused by the capacitors) Although I know there is not more it is just that the high freq noise is massively reduced and balanced is restored.
I expect more of this when the mid caps go in.
Even the friend who "liked" the stadium sound quickly grew tired of it. (and frustrated)
I will have two more reports to wrap this up. One when the mid comes in and one more likely on the CAST Duelund's I am likely to get for the tweeters. The CAST are known as the best on the planet. Tony rated the cheaper VSF's the best he has heard and he had not yet rated the CAST.
Stormen said some buddies consider the VSF's a little rough compared to CAST. That is mind boggling!
One thing for certain anything you think you have heard from a set of vintage Khorns is all wrong. In my mind as a almost 30 year owner ALL for the better with Duelund's! |
I did some digging on the Linn speakers and I understand they use Bennic XPP and a 10uf costs about $7. I guess I can understand the hard brittle sound? Supposed to be somewhat better than Solen and around the level of the very lowest Mundorf. What exatly does one pay for in most new speakers???? |
Stormen thanks for the article.
I used to find this DIY stuff kind of nuts. Like how could any DIY guy get speakers to sound better than a major manufacturer? I often thought it was just to the personal tastes of the listener.
I am finding myself starting to move into Art Dudley mentality. I do not know if you have read his latest stuff but clearly moving into some vintage mentality. Stereophile gave huge praise to the Fisher 500c saying it gives up precious little to modern new designs. This is much tougher than one thinks as Fisher does not advertise in Stereophile as it is bankrupt.
By that I mean I really think I would buy whatever speakers I liked used and gut them and put in good parts. The cost of a new speaker (from a major manufacturer) with good parts is/would be crazy. Also I doubt any speaker at a reasonable price uses good parts. (Johnk this is not directed at you as I know you do and can use good parts)
I think the majors must try and get as good as sound as possible while spending as little as possible. Which begs the question can corporations improve audio? Are corporations best suited to cost cutting? When Paul Klipsch sold the company it seems like the first thing the new owners did was cut costs. Cheaper crossover parts, cheaper drivers, etc. The problem is I am sure Klipsch makes more $ today than it ever did using good parts. Just pride stopped Paul from using cheap parts?
Which Stormen brings me back into Steen's camp if crossovers parts were top notch you would not hear the improvements. When $20 resitors are "heard" as an improvement it screams weak link. |
Stormen I hear in your thread you mention that passive (Duelund) sounds much better than active for car stereo?
Is this correct? |
Interesting note.
When I installed the Sonicaps (mids and tweeter) I could not listen to both speakers at the same time. They sounded like to speakers out of phase one going in while one going out. With the Duelund I have done most "voiceing" on one speaker but it is not hard to listen to both. Anyone care to speculate why? the speed? is the same on the two natural caps?
I can listen to the Duelund and vintage speakers together and they sound very good together. why? Yes the Duelund is better in every way but they are cut from the same cloth.
My goal was to keep the original sound and found the Duelund to be the closest.
Is this Steen's talk about speakers being in phase?
Is it plastic?
Is it the cap speed?
One thing it is real. Vintage foil in oil matches closely Duelund Virtual Stack Foil.
I can try with the Mundorf's to see if it was just the Sonicaps or Poly caps in general but it is unmistakable.
In past post you will see me comment on the two different systems. |
Thanks Stormen.
Just did not want people to think I am nuts, that the vintage and Duelund do sound similiar.
I was always confused by the vintage Klipsch magic. I thought it was horns. Then put in the Sonicaps and the speakers sounded "cheap". I was initially surprised by this.
I was also surprised that plastic caps plastized the sound. (not sure why I was surprised)
I am now likely to be on a mission after this is done to replace wire that is plastic coated. For sure in the speaker as it needs it anyway.
I had always wondered since getting the vintage amp and being very surprised by it, as to the "improvements" we have had in 40+ years. (Stereophile was "ga ga" over the sound) I have also noticed a lot of vintage amps that come up for sale after they have been "upgraded". Some will say I do not like the tone anymore. Is it the plastic caps? |
Stormen ever tried the aluminum VSF's?
I think my vintage foils are aluminum. |
Very good Undertow.
I was interested in how some people like high resonating caps. Like my friend when he first heard the comparison he like the perceived "fullness" of the sound. Massive distortion is what it is. After awhile he got frustrated with it but intitial reaction was good.
The vintage cans are a tin can and the sound sounds like it comes from a can resonating.
My friend did leave saying he could not believe the difference and thought it bigger than ANY amp (tube) vs. SS analog vs. digital difference of anything he ever heard.
Undertow as I understand this though Clarity Cap wants to keep the mass produced caps but with less resonating?
Undertow I can say that the vintage cap resonates like crazy and should with it's tin can shape but I sure do not hear resonate distortion on the Mundorf Supreme or Silver in Oil. I hear a plastized sound. This should get interesting. Is this a industry fighting back of changing the style of caps and saying we need same caps with less resonance? |
Undertow
I did not mean anything bad against Clarity Cap. I see from Tony Gee they are rated very highly. I would have had them in my test if they were available from same supplier.
I just did not like a couple of Clarity's comment's. Like this one.
"The new MR range harnesses all of the knowledge gathered throughout the research programme and we believes offers the market a superior product based upon science and research rather than
snake oil".
I am not sure who they are trying to discredit the Teflon's or Duelund?
Another quote
"Specifically, we wanted to understand the
underlying technology of our capacitors, without looking at exotic materials and strange assemblies".
Again who are they trying to discredit?
I just did not like those comments but do look forward to what you think of them! I also am a little touchy when the industry seems to protect the current ways of doing things. I remember getting back into vinyl after being barraged when digital came in about no tics and pops like all would be great. I am also a little ticked at finding out how good vintage tubes sound after my dealer kind of told me tube people were also a little odd?
I do also want to hear more than just tweeter caps and can't wait till they are here. I do also realise Duelund is very expensive! |
Maybe a little humiliation here is needed.
I put back in the Mundorf Supreme's for more burn in.
I also reduced balance controls to flat from +2 on bass. The reduced noise allows this.
This tuning speakers is not easy. After listening to the vintage (mid range caps) again they started to sound noisy and that started to bug me. So there will no no original caps left. They are worn out for sure and too noisy.
I now consider the Mundorf Supreme's a horizontal move and with break in this should improve as there is only a few hours on them. |
Undertow
I can not comment on Duelund in electronics. I have only being rebuilding the low voltage speaker crossovers.
I agree on the obsene prices. I can not wait till you give your impression of the Duelund for the high freq.
That is why I had originally ordered one Duelund for the mid range as to see the effects were as big as the high freq. (worth the $)
On the low freq did you find the Alpha core to be a big step up from the original inductor? I also would expect less difference in the lows as error is not a critical.
I am still waiting and looking forward to eval'ing Duelund CAST for tweeters after being so impressed with VSF.
|
I will update on the Silver in Oil. The last time I had it in I was not noticing the the upward tilt so much as it did seem as hours seem to be smoothing it out somewhat. I will try it again with Duelund and Supreme again.
I need to know this for myself as my other speakers sound lousy since the new caps went in. (so may do them as well)
In a seperate question I had thought of two systems but now think it crazy as the better one just reveals the faults of the poorer one and mostly just sits there. (srreaming for more money!) Anyone else find that? |
Undertow where do you find Clarity cap prices?
Thanks |
Thanks Undertow
Next week I will be ordering inductors as well.
The CAST by Duelund I can not say for sure if dimishing returns as I did not find the VSF's to be dimishing returns but large returns. I used to think I could never listen to digital unless I spent some crazy amount of money and even still did not know what it meant. I must say this is the first time I have enjoyed listening to digital. So for the price of caps I can enter the digital age and not have to listen to just vinyl.
I still have not heard the turntable on the Duelund's. I am waiting for the mid caps to be here to do that. So to me the caps are worth it. In some ways I am afraid to hook up the table, I love/hate when you get a new reference! I used to like my other speakers before the Duelund's. Now I cannot even listen to them, really that is kind of a bummer. |
Been gone of couple of days.
Dgarretson I may take you up on this. I could order a Mundorf Supreme 10uf for the midrange, to go with the 2.2 I have. I need to total 13uf (or close) I am waiting on Duelund. The Russian Teflon is interesting. Did you buy one of those boxes? |
I have been looking into doing the caps in the Linn speakers as well. Not sure I want to spend Duelund money again so soon but maybe Duelund Aluminum VSF for tweeter. I took the base off the Linn speaker on Saturday and they kind of seal the bottom screws. So I going to have to check with the Linn dealer on what to do? Do not want to hurt resell value. They are around 10 years old anyway or more. |
Tearing apart the Linn speakers tomorrow. Looking at a less expensive redo there as well.
I have this theory that maybe a cheap Linn all in one player may sound better than much more expensive source and pre and amp with better crossover parts.
This goes right against what Linn has said for so long. I have really been questioning this (in my mind) overspending on source to run through crap crossover parts.
In my case a Linn Karik (with the Numerik) Kairn/Klout pushed 15k new. (with a Tuner) A Linn Classik was $1500. What if changing the speaker caps which Linn uses that are dirt cheap even retail to better crossover parts made the cheap Classik sound better than the much more expensive seperates? My wife would rather have just one piece of gear in the livingroom anyway in the second system.
It has been bugging me. I have taken Linn at there word and even if one did not get that brand I believed the formula of source first. Now I am really starting to wonder? A fully loaded new Lp12 is 15k plus! Then they run that through $2 capacitors! The Linn parts are much cheaper than Sonicaps. Not that price always means better but usually really cheap is just that. |
I have asked on the Linn thread about capacitors replacement. No response. Almost if it was a crazy idea. In Linn world Aktiv is taken as a given. I know it works well but what about just staying passive in the case of just being better without the massive expense?
Linn claims that the passive network can absorb 50% of the power! (at moderate/high volumes)
I think that can put to rest the importance of the crossover.
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:VC4GJNTO8-8J:www.tonbildspinnerei.ch/pdfs/Aktiv_Explanation.pdf+taking+out+Linn%27s+passive+crossover&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3 |
I took the Linn speakers apart and it is a crazy idea as the speakers crossovers are a circuit board. There is a 8uf Bennic and at least two other bigger caps 50mfd's and one unmarked cap. There is three inductors plus other parts I do not even know what they are. Much more complicated than the simple Klipsch "AA" so therefore more costly to redo. Linn claims just to skip the passive crossover and go aktiv is more cost effective. It seems to me Linn must not think one is going to stay passive for long as the 8uf Bennic is about $3 (if you order 10 or more which no doubt they are) Well built speakers and lots of insulation just not spending to much on the crossover parts.
The Linn Bennic 8uf cap is about the size of the 2uf Sonicap and is thought to be even a cheaper sounding cap. It is a tiny fraction of the size of the 2.2 Mundorf Supreme. I know some guys do not think cap size matters.
The 50mfd Bennic'a look to be worth a buck and half each. It would cost a fair $ to build out of Mundorf Supreme quality of parts though not being cost effective compared to used Aktiv and amps.
Scatch that idea. |
Mundorf electrolyics
2x around $30 each speaker
1x Mundorf Supreme 8uf $60 each speaker
3 inductors Alpha Core app $150 each speaker
Misc caps and extra parts easy $300
You could easy spend $1k on decent crossover. Plus paying someone to do it and not being able to recoup the cost of crossover as no one would pay you anything for it. (not being made by Linn)
I have been doing sound test on mostly around 5 CD's. Took the same source up to Linn speakers. (linn Karik) (same Cd's) It is hopeless on those speakers.
This has been a learning experience for me. I will be de-tuning the livingroom system to just a Linn Classik all in one stereo as I do not think the speakers justify anything more. That would be better balance. It will become my wife's stereo for background music. Or just getting rid of them. |
Thanks Undertow
You are right and I am not that hard core. Linn also does Aktiv and used Aktiv is likely cheaper and for sure more resaleable.
I have moved the CD player back in to the Linn system and can now understand why some were so excited about Sonicaps. They are better than Bennic in my mind. I hear Bennic (that linn uses) is about the same as Solen's which are 6.5 (according to Tony)
The Sonicaps are 8.5 so that would seem like a jump up it that is what you had before. Coincidently the Sonicaps are again much bigger than Bennic.
Undertow every time worth it? Good to know. I could fit the crossover in and the speakers were a lot more than $1k new about $4k+ but that would be the used value. Does it take them into $10 to $15k new value with a $1k in parts?
I am starting to demo Klipsch now on vinyl with the SS to hear if the difference is the same with SS or just tubes. |
After 10 hours the Mundorf's lose crazy bass.
I find the Mundorf quiet on noise level and did like that combo in the tweeter for awhile with the Duelund.
This could get interesting with the mix of the Russian teflons coming. Will that add a bit of needed speed and liveliness?
Interesting as to how different caps break in differently.
Duelund a bit edgy out of the box but brought instruments to life.
Mundorf boomy (IMO) harsh and grainy not a pretty picture at first. Showing some promise now not neary so bad. |
Undertow a little confused?
The new Klipsch Palladium series if the crossover is so weak what about the rest of the components? What exactly do you mean WAY out of there element? |
Klipsch used to be a high end company though Undertow. 30 years ago a set of Khorns was almost 4k. Klipch went down market since then.
Which is another question I have can a corporation advance audio? It seems like to me whenever a corporation takes over a audio company they ALWAYS lower costs. I think pride goes out the window. It seems in audio the pioneers are always guys like Steen who want better sound and don't care so much about money. They are obsessed about sound but not so much about money. Corporations by there nature want to cut costs.
Undertow I was looking at a set of Khorns from a guy who was buying the Palladium's and I see he is back looking for Khorns? |
Realistic priced for the Khorns? Dirt cheap might be another word. For sure for the vintage ones.
I think B&W's top speaker is 70k. I think Linn's is around 50k but that comes with amplification built in and no crossovers.
The reason I was told by the Linn dealer on the importantance of the passive speaker crossover is the crossover is powered by the signal. So it does only make sense that it would be of extreme importantance and like you said shows up again and again.
I have heard the Klipsch guys say A or AA are the best networks. Are they the best because they are the simplest therefore have the least amount of components so suck up the least energy? |
My feeling exactly on the crossover parts. (fewer the better)
I am not taking on the Linn speakers. What is worse is they have a shelf life then. You either buy there crossover circuit board staying at spec or they are most like obsolete. (if they sell them) So the best you can hope for is factory spec no improvement or a ton of money on custom built out of high quality parts. Which is not cost effective.
As far as Klipsch using cheap parts in there new speakers have they done anything since PWK sold the company? |
Put SS back on to eval with it as well. |
Vintage caps and SS on the one speaker is the thing of nightmares!
Even the other speaker with the Duelund tweeter caps is not as good as with the tube but unsure if it is caused by SS or bad midrange cap?
The difference is even more distinct than with tube gear, much more distinct! |
Need Help Please tube guys.
I installed the Linn SS amps back in. The vintagee amp clobbers the SS stuff. SS sounds mechanical! I am new to this tube gear and have heard modern tube gear and was not all that impressed. The vintage one blows me away!
So I took apart the vintage tube Fisher x100d (same as a 500c I think without the tuner)
When taking apart the vintage I found only ONE modern capacitor and nothing else changed.
Most capacitors look like a gumball. What is that? Paper in Oil?
I have heard even changing the resitors to modern stuff kills the sound of these vintage pieces.
I used a mirror to see what the modern cap is but can not tell.
Very excited to find the Fisher is realitively unmolested.
Is it the key no plastic? Why does the old stuff sound sooooo good? My very expensive new stuff sounds 2D flat and lifeless by comparison. |
