Rchau thanks for the help I will answer what I can.
Almost 2 years ago now they went bad. In the sense of bad I mean the noise level went up. The sound on SS gear became harsh.
Resistors? I do not think they have any?
The midrange from that Alnico magnet is what makes me keep them. Still amazing!
Capacitors? When I had the Sonicaps in I could hear that the speakers were now crossing over at the right spots. The bass was much improved and the highs were I think better than ever! But the down side was the "life" and realness in the midrange was gone as well. They didn't sound defective with Sonicaps just not majical.
I have looked for vintage Aerovox to see if they are still made. That is where the Mundorf Silver in Oil comes in as a close replacement to originals. The originals were film in oil.
Another factor is break in maybe I just did not give the Sonicaps enough time. I am having them installed in the new crossover. I am getting the quote with new inductors. I want to see if inductors cleam up the bass and if so new Mundorfs are coming. I feel (hope) that Mundorf Silver in Oil and top notch inductors (Alpha Core or Mundorf) will max out these speakers. I am from the camp who loves them when they are right.
I have had one of the bottoms off to see the woofer and the other was too tight to take off. Looked mint in there.
I do not know if you have heard of Arthur Salvatore but he ranks the Khorns as the best vintage speaker ever. He says just once he would love to hear a all out version. I myself feel the same.
I could hear a increase in noise in the speakers. I assumed it was the cartridge only to find out it was not. Maybe someone else could pipe in do bad caps have a high noise floor?
Yes modern caps have a different tonal quality or lack of is a better way to describe them. (dead and unemotional) I do hope the Mundorf's are as good as original that is all. |
Face I will be doing something and my gut says just get the Mundorf's. I was surprised to (and somewhat not) hear that old caps did do something special. I think the oil in the Klipsch does something and caps are wayyyy more important than I thought. Maybe (I feel) why some people really like the Mundorf (oil caps) is they have brought back the best quality of the past. (that oh so real mid range) |
Rchau I think most would say the original A network that Paul Klipsch himself designed would be the best or the AA. The AA came out at the time of SS with added tweeter protection. The new crossovers seem to be hit and miss.
The interesting part is Klipsch is no longer a high end company. They are more mass market or mid fi.
They do not even stock replacement parts and send you to the aftermarket guys.
You are 100% right on new caps. I wish I could just get the old ones again or else I am gambling. The does concern me what you said about the Mundorf's. Klipsch Lascala do not need a tilt to the upper end.
Tweeters are 6.4 and 6.7 ohm
Mid's are 10.8 and 10.6
Woofers are 3.9 both
I am unsure if that is normal spec but I do think it close. |
Rctau thanks for the help. I have talked to Al on the phone. I am trying to keep as close as possible to original or better of course. I never would have thought that to be a tough thing. I will have to wait to see but have the feeling a plastic cap cannot sound like an original film in oil. That Mundorf tilt does concern me. I do have modern speakers as well. JohnK just says get modern horns. He may be right. |
Rchau I did hear that the Mundorf's (oils) were about 2 or 3 db hotter. That would make sense to me as the old oil caps are hotter as well. I sure have gained an appreciation for speaker tuning. I was thinking last night and thought I might just start buying single caps and start doing the tuning myself on one speaker. This might be more cost effective. Might just get the board built with room and run jumpers onto caps try a few kinds on one speaker then have the right ones solder in. Sell off (for what I can get) the ones I do not like. That way I am not buying full sets for two speakers. Mundorf oils are over $600 for both. But a tweeter and see is not to bad? Some vintage oil caps are cheap anyway. |
What what I have seen from the old caps they are somewhat hotter. (louder) I am just going to have to start buying some and see. I suppose I can start with the tweeter caps and see what the caps sound like. I have this speculation that as caps break down they get slower. I think that is why the original caps started to sound bad on SS. (the same gear as when it sounded good) The caps seem to break up? When I put the tube amp on things did calm down a lot! When the Sonicaps went in all the break up in sound was gone. The liquid real sound gone but all the harshness as well. Do caps get slow and to slow to keep up? If I am right that is why (I think) the Mundorfs will do well fast yet smooth. This should be interesting. I am getting new inductors as well and manufactures say to keep within original spec for ohms. Less ohms means tighter thinner bass? |
Well were talking Air core inductors do really sound better? (than Iron core) No one uses Iron core on higher end speaker anymore do they? |
Tomorrow I will be ordering caps for the tweeter. They will be Mundorf Supreme, Mundorf Silver in Oil and Duelund. (they are the only ouch to come!) The only to know is to try I guess. I found even the cheap Sonicaps to sound better in the tweeter. So I am starting there. I will be ordering those caps. They are all Class "A" or "B" in this list and most everyone has the Duelund's at the top of their list. At a big cost albeit! I do like the all natural components rather than plastic. I hope one of these will sound the best. Part of me hopes it is the Mundorf Supremes as they are very affordable! |
Lots of ssssss's right now. Might just give some break in time on the Duelund's. They may not match well with another companies caps either. They may not match well with just the Silver in Oil. They sound a bit hard and bright. |
Just got home from work and called for the parts. They are calling back. The Duelunds do peak my interest. When someone spends the kind of money they are and is not disapointed well you know they must be good. They seem to be at the top of everyone's list. I am not breaking the bank on one cap anyway. Partsconnexion had a review on the Sonicaps saying they were cheap and sounded cheap would be the exact way I describe them so at least I was on the same page as reviewer. Tony Gee thought the Sonicaps a great cheap cap. I found them more like the partsconnexion review. Not defective but NOT of the original quality. I am not looking to break new ground but do not want to give up anything either. |
Caps are on the way. I am going to put in the Sonciaps to reaquaint myself with them. Then I will put in the Mundorf Supreme's then Mundorf Silver in Oil and last the very pricey Duelunds's.
They did recommend Jupiter but that was after the order had went though. Jupiter has relocated in the east and I am not sure if I want to be the test market for them. |
Sonicaps back in on the tweeters on one speaker. You wouldn't think you would notice much difference with just the tweeter caps replaced but you do! |
Just got first lesson on speaker tuning. The Klipsch as the caps started to go bad started to sound midrange range focused and noisy. I just replaced the tweeter caps with the Sonicaps with 10 hours on them. (in one speaker) I was expecting changes in the high freq. What I was NOT expecting was the midrange is much tuned down???? There is much better balance in the speaker by just changing the tweeter caps??? This I was not expecting. I was expecting the highs to be more or less or better or worse but I was not expecting the BIG difference in the midrange.
This is for sure not all lost. I already prefer even the cheap Sonicaps on the high freq. Replacing tweeter caps (at least bad ones) cuts the midrange down and give much more bass.
For people reading this in the future and are not sure if you want to pour money into your speakers. Start with the tweeter caps for sure the cheapest and it is surprising what they do to the "other" freq.
At first I thought what will I be able to tell from just tweeter caps? Maybe a lot!
In critical listening sometimes I like to listen to say just the bass guitar player. With the old caps you could NOT do that. You would just be frustrated. They sounded dynamic but a mess! Ok till you really listened.
I am more excited then I have been since the start of this. For sure I will be replacing at least the tweeter caps.
Very excited to hear these Duelund's. These are the copper foil ones that Tony Gee rated so good. I hope they live up to my expectations. |
JohnK you may be right on the crazy caps. They for sure are expensive! I can not say yet whether they are worth it? I am not really interested in mods though just making them as good and hopefully better then new. I can say that plastic caps are NOT as good as original. So it does not make sense to me to put cheap caps in unless of course they sound good. Sonicaps fit the cheap but not the sound good. JohnK remember from my point I was very happy with the Klipsch for 25 years unmodded. If my old caps had not gone bad I would not be doing a thing! I have this feeling that caps are like what has happened to many other things in audio. At one time people were SURE digital was better then analog. At one time people were SURE SS was better than tubes. People were SURE hard ceramic magnets were no worse than Alnico. (even thought Alnico cost 30 to 50x as much) Alnico was not supposed to matter we were told. I think oil caps will likley be the same and just wish I could get more of those antique oil caps I had but that is impossible. I am on the same page as Arthur Salvatore wishing to just once hear a fully done set of Khorns that I might add are still his top EVER vintage speaker and STILL one of the best! (money no object) |
JohnK is this your speaker company and do I understand you use Mundorf Silver in Oil and Alnico Magnets in your speakers? Have you ever tried the Duelund's with your horns?
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/realitycheck2/kalinowksi.html |
The Mundorf Supreme and Mundorf Silver in Oil and Duelund caps are in should be a fun weekend. The Mundorf Supreme is even much larger then the Sonicaps. (over twice as large) The Mundorf Silver in Oil is huge! The size is at 2.2uf is larger then the Sonicaps at 13uf. The are many many times bigger than the 2uf Sonicaps. When you hold one up to the other the Sonicaps look like toys! The Duelunds are shockingly heavy! My goodness they even make the originals seem lightweight by comparison. The Mundorf Silver in Oil by size and volume of cap is close to original oil filled caps.
I do not know what this means but will have an idea this weekend but at least for all that money both the Mundorf Silver in Oil and the Duelund's do NOT look like toys.
Can't wait to hear the difference?! |
I have one Sonicap and the Mundorf Supreme in one speaker. I can not say anything yet as I do not know if there is or even should be any improvement or change from the 2 Sonicaps. I am expecting to hear more difference when the Silver in Oil is added in and will be two Mundorf's together.
From here down is about the Sonicaps only. This was before the Mundorf was installed.
I did write down impressions on a Nirvana Nevermind CD. (I know what you guys are thinking)(not normally what I listen to either)
There is a rawness to Cobains voice that when put through the Sonicaps was sterilized. On the vintage oil caps
1. There was a mid bass drone. Highs dead. But again a raw rauncy realism to Kurt's voice.
On the Sonicaps reverb not there. They sound cheap. Kurt is very distant with a not there feel. Controlled and sterilized.
I always found this album to be sad in that it never come across right on CD. I have always been going to buy the vinyl and did once but kept coming through warped. |
First hour impression of the (one) Mundorf Supreme is good. Seems to be more dynamic. Voices already sound more real than just Sonicaps. There is some sssss though. I am almost sure Mundorf's are a louder cap than Sonicaps. The Mundorf's are going to be in better balance for sure. The Sonicaps are far to quiet compared to the original. Almost like going through a filter. The Mundrorf Supreme has MUCH more energy than Sonicaps. As I undertand caps they are like batteries and the voluume (size) in the Mundorf Supreme is likely 30x and the Mundorf Silver in Oil at least 50x. The leads on the Mundorf are at least twice as thick.
I am hearing the drone on the old caps more and more in comparison. |
Enough of just hearing one Mundorf I will be installing the Silver in Oil in just a few minutes. When it was two Sonicaps the volume was much lower in the Sonicaps over vintage oils. With one Mundorf it is much closer but still louder in the vintage.
Just installed the Mundorf Silver in Oil and Mundorf Supreme. |
Put the Supreme back in to go with the SIO. (Duelund out)
First impression was they sounded a bit coarse. The better thing about the Mundorf's is they are very well balanced to these speakers. I do not feel like I wish they were louder or quieter. They are just right. I did notice with the Duelunds that the violins snapped out like violins so depending on your speakers you may want that. With the horns it was a little too much. The Mundorf's are more laid back. The Duelund was wearing not as enjoyable. |
Thanks Jim
300 hours. I keep hearing the long break in time but they sound really good to me after 10 hours! Can't wait to hear what they will sound like in 300. Right now I am using the Supreme and the SIO would you expect two SIO's too be better. I am ordering another Monday and likely another Supreme. I may just get the SIO and try two on the tweeters. They are very easy to listen too. Detailed without fatigue. I am very glad to have found a cap that works well in vintage horns. Looking forward to another 30 years with the speakers.
The internet sure is handy to hear from other audio freaks. From the volumes I read on the net I thought the SIO would be the one. But you never know till they are in. |
First 10 minutes of Silver in Oil. They are brighter than Supremes. The filter of the Sonicaps is removed. The Silver tilt the emphasis upwards. Maybe beyond what I am used too? I do not find they hurt the bass though?? as I have read? They just seem to emphasize the cymbals. It seems somewhat unnatural too. It sounds like they can go higher and it is like they want to show you how high they can go? So far I would lean towards the Supreme's. In this eval I am paying no (or not much) attention to cost. Even with all of that the Supreme's may be the way for me to go. I remember talking to B&W about the Nautilus (new ones) and they said they went with the Suprememe's and I thought it was a cost thing. (like they should worry about that on a speaker that cost that much) I think I can see why they went with Supremes.
I just put in a audiophile CD. The Nirvana is poorly recorded and I just want to see if on a better CD it was the same.
The Audiophile Cd does not make me feel like there is too much emphasis on the highs. So I take that to mean you may not want Silver in Oil if you listen to poorly recorded music. Maybe Silver in Oil is more revealing of the upstream.
This is easily a combination I could live with. Still not better than vintage caps in every way but better in some ways and the downside is less.
Maybe after break in they will be better in every way. I hope this helps people as well in the future who are looking to do this not just Klipsch guys. But the Mundorfs can match the vintage in dynamics.
I will do the wife test again sometime in the future after break-in. (last time she can down to say Wow those new caps are wayyyy better but she was pointing to the speaker with all the old ones in it!)
You can pick out instruments much better in the new caps and they are faster, quieter and do have good dynamics.
They do not yet give you more realism. The old Klipsch (oil) caps are very good at that. So if you own old Klipsch unless your caps are defective you are not going to upgrade them cheaply.
One thing I will say about the Mundorfs they do make you want to listen more which is the biggest thing to me. |
Trying the Mundorfs on a poor recording. It used to sound rough and not near as rough with the Mundorfs. So they are good even on poor recordings. They have smoothed out quite a bit in even less than 3 hours. The hard highs are almost gone!
Tomorrow the Duelund's are going in. |
Duelund's not yet in but I am not feeling a need to rush to them. The Mundorf's are very good!
Beatles Love CD (heard in at least 100x)
What am I hearing now that I could not hear on the Klipsch before or the Linn gear?
I can tell again who is singing which was a problem on the Klipsch.
On Elanor Rigby. Wow! That is at least two violins. I always thought so but now I can hear it. The Mundorfs are sorting out all the stringed instruements. It is making the hairs stand up on my arms!
I am the Walrus.
I did not know it was John saying "choking" smokers. I never clearly heard "choking" and was not sure if it was joking smokers. I heard all kinds of subtle nuances in that song I never hear.
Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite.
Cymbals sound amazing! The end of the song my wife would always turn down in the car. (my fav part) Paul's bass is dubbed in from I want You. Still not perfect on the Mundorfs but much better.
Yesterday (Beatles)
I believe that is a 4 piece strings. Bass Cello Violin and maybe Viola. Better it was just strings.
Before with old caps the Klipsch were dynamic but you could not listen in any critical fashion because they were a mess.
Strawberry Fields
I could pick out one instrument after another that I did not know was there.
Within You Without You
Still a little rough sounding.
Lucy in the Sky
Cymbals good but not great.
Well time for Duelund's. I am almost afraid after reading Tony Gee's review. Afraid that I am going to like them that much and feel compelled to blow a bunch of dough. He rated Supremes 9 Silver in Oil 10 and Duelunds 12.5!
No matter Mundorfs are as good as I hoped for and WELL worth the money to me!
|
Running the Duelund and one Mundorf Silver in Oil. For sure some change just not yet sure what it is?? |
Duelund with the Silver in Oil seems to tilt even more upward and so far takes the bass off a notch. |
Thanks Jim.
I started this because when I was looking I would hear buy this or buy that but did not know what it meant.
I always use the does it make me want to listen more. If I am spending a pile of money on gear it better make me WANT to listen.
I am having a hard time not pulling out the Duelund and and putting back in the Mundorf Supreme to work with the Silver in Oil. I will try the Duelund with the Supreme to make sure it is not just a bad match with the SIO.
Being horn speakers I do not mean to say the Duelund's are not good.
The Mundorfs make me want to listen more. Juicy detail. Elanor Rigby I have heard 100's of times and have not ever heard the (I believe) 4 piece strings and with front to back depth. With the Duelund that same magic is not there. The Duelund's are louder and brighter. There sound tends to move toward the older PIO Klipsch caps.
To be fair the Duelunds are not broke in. One thing I have found (for me) if I like the caps they get better with time and if you do not like them they may become less bad but I have not said hate to love it after reasonable break in. You get an idea if you like it within a few hours.
I will check your site out Jim and I think you are right with the Mundorf's. Very special! When you put a cap in and go I never knew that was there when you have heard something 100's of times and it sounds right and better that is a good sign.
I am hearing nothing in the Duelunds I have not heard before. They may be brighter. The Mundorf's felt very musical and balanced.
Maybe Duelund's need to be only with other Duelund's but without anything to make me feel for sure that will be better I will NOT spend that kind of money to find out. The Mundorf's do work with other Mundorf's and now I will likely be buying more to find the right combo for the midrange which is 13uf.
Having one original and one speaker being worked makes this stuff easy.
So far
1. Mundorf SIO and Supreme
2. Original PIO (from memory from before went bad)
everything else is very distant
3. Mundorf and one Sonicap
4. Old worn out PIO
5. Duelund and Mundorf SIO
6. Two Sonciaps. |
Jim this is very educational for me as well. There is $250 of tweeter caps (in just one speaker) with the SIO and Duelund and I would pull them out and put the old vintage ones back in, in a second. So it is for sure not about $. Yet it is about $ too as the SIO are wayyyyy better built then the Soncicaps with 50x the volume in size of the cap. Even the leads are 3x as thick. |
Sorry guys this log was meant to form an opinion against a stable base (stock original speaker) and my main system so it is meant to say what someone can expect over the break in time. I have not said anything against the Duelund just right out of the box it is somewhat bright. As a guy with old Klipsch for 30 years this is meant to give a general idea of those 5 kinds of caps but more importantly there are lots of guys whose Klipsch (old film in oil caps) are worn out. I could not find a guy who was as picky as me who said these caps are as good as original or better and I do not mean on paper. I wish I could have found this on the net for me, I might not have agreed with the guy but it would have cut the chase down for me to likely a couple of caps. So maybe I should put a clear list of what I am doing so there is no confusion.
Klispch Lascala rebuild. (from a 27+ year owner)
Goals
1. To match the "realism" of original caps. (which I think is VERY good)
2. Same or more detail yet still smooth
3. Keep as close as possible to original sound. Not looking to change the sound, unless clearly better.
4. Cost not much of a factor as I intend on another 30 years out of the speakers.
So you guys think say with the Sonicaps that have maybe 30 hours on them they will become dynamic after a number of hours? Say 300? I found them flat out of the box and flat at 30 hours. Will that improve? They are very tiny compared to say Mundorf or originals. |
Dgarretson
"Ditto for Mundorf Silver/Gold. IME the main thing that changes through break-in is that the better film caps relax and become supple, warmer, dimensional & airy. The forwardness and brightness that prompts some users to prematurely unplug them disappears".
This I can see but with the Sonicaps my knock was NOT forward and brightness but dead and lifeless lack of dynamics they were not bright. So can a cap after break in get more life? That I have not heard of. That is why I have wrote them off at 30 hours.
The Duelund's I have not (wrote off) as they are very dynamic! They are edgey and hard to listen too but sounds just pop! What Tony Gee says is true that violins sounded like they were coming right out of the speakers. When I put the Mundorf's back in they sounded somewhat soft by comparison. (but relaxed and nice to listen too)
If any cap fits the typical breakin sound it is the Duelund's as they are dynamic and edgy. So my comments only meant to say the Mundorf is very easy listen right out of the box. |
Ok guys I have put the Duelund back in this time with the Supreme for a much longer burn in.
I have also upgraded the source. I was using a cheap NAD Cd player which is not wise now that things are getting serious. Now I put in the Linn Karik CD player. I would put my reference which is what I am voicing the speakers for which is the LP12. Mine is fairly loaded LP12 which is miles better than the Karik but the phono stage on the Fisher tube amp is too loud. The Linn pre and amp sounded just horrible on the worn out caps. So I was forced to use the tube amp to make things listenable.
I did listen to the same CD again with the Karik and the Mundorf's and the improvement was not that great. Made me me feel like there was not much difference from a cheap CD player and expensive one. Then I put the Duelund's in and Wow! Duelund's VERY source dependent. They are louder brighter and reveal upstream weakness.
My main comment on the vintage caps was a dynamic mess. The Duelund's are a dynamic dream. They make instruments sound soooooo real! |
The Duelund's are changing fast!!!! I can not believe I called them bright! Holy Crap!
Very emotional right now.
A Day in the Life (Beatles) Feels like the first time I ever heard it.
I can not believe how good they are. Either it is the mix back with the Supreme instead of Silver in Oil or the better source or break in. But I take back ANY negative comment about the Duelund. Oooooh Soooo Natural.
I will post next time all the differnent instruments and things I never heard before. Going for dinner. |
Unbelievable is the best way to describe Duelund. These things are beyond words. I believe Mr. Paul Klipsch himself would have LOVED these caps! Mr Duelund is going down in audio history. (I know he has past away but is going to be remembered)
Elanor Rigby
I could pick out whether it was the bass cello or viola or violin and I mean with ease! (viola and violin are tough to tell apart to me as they have overlap if I remember correctly from the school orchestra just can not remember how many strings)
Just to give an insight to what I am hearing the start of Elanor Riby (before Paul sings)
is Cello (with violin in background)
then violins come in the forefront (and with cello in brackground)
then violins again (I believe two) with the cello player in the background. This is all before Paul sings.
It's incredible! It was always just strings before.
Now it's Paul singing upfront and the the violin players are right behind him (at least two) (with the main violin playe or two right beside him) him in depth and in the back of the soundstage is the cello (or cello's)
I am off too bed. I am trying to say more but my mind just keeps drifting into the music. I believe when these are broke in I can say just how many pieces are being used and where they are.
I have never heard anything like this.
The music goes from one intrument to another with such balance. Tremendous detail and no grain. I can not believe how they make each instrument sound so distinct.
Until now all the cap combo's gave up in some area to the original's. These give up nothing to anything! This combo is a upgrade in every sense.
Something (Beatles)
When George says Your asking me will my love grow. (and the ace picks up)
There is some unknown instrument there like a banjo! This is on the Bealtles Love CD and I have NEVER heard it before and it is like George Martin's son is screwing with us. It just comes out of no where and the first time I heard it I thought something popped in my speaker. It is there twice and is on purpose? It lasts for about 10 seconds. |
That should say
(and the pace picks up) |
Johnk I have not completed a 200 hour on each just saying the Duelund's are insane! (that is one duelund and one Mundorf Supreme)
I am just very happy to be picking from improvement. The Sonicaps Gen (I) were like replacing old worn Porsche parts with Hyundai parts (new) they were not broke but left much to be desired. Not the dynamics of originals or realism.
One thing I think even you Johnk will agree is that horns reveal changes much more than regular speakers. Horns magnify all source amp and caps changes (now I find out)
What I can say is replacing the tweeter caps was beyond my wildest expectations. What impresses me most is that not only are the best CD's improved but so are the worst ones! I put on a James Brown Greatest Hits last night (one of the worst ones) the first 6 or so songs I thought were unlistenable before and they were wayyyyyy better. I find with many things I have done before (for sure in analog) it makes your best sound better and the worst sound even worse!
This is one of the few upgrades were I am searching for the downside. (except in my pocket) |
Sorry for the spelling mistakes it is of course Eleanor Rigby. I have been racing sometimes. |
A Day in the Life (Beatles) (one of their best in my opinion)
At the part where it goes from John singing to the orchestra to Paul. I always thought it was always violins and drums. There are horns there. Never heard them before!
These caps sort out stuff I did not believe possible! Classical music lovers would go nuts.
If you have read the post from the beginning you would know I had LOVED these speakers for a long time. Like Johnk LOVE the horn dynamics. Everything else was to boring. Then I got frustrated with the poor critical listening there were giving me. I could not tell one singer from another! I would have to go upstairs and listen to other system for when I wanted to crtical listen.
I would love to have a debate on what makes the Duelund so good. The vintage caps in oil always gave a very "live" feel but had reverb (maybe through the can?) that the Duleund's do not? Is it their hard encasing? I read something about cocoon silk all natural ingredients as well. As good as I think the originals I find the sound similiar with the Duelund's but better. A lot less loss of info. |
Undertow
I always understood if you run caps in parellal that you get a higher % of performance from the better cap?
That is another question for some cap guys. I will need a 13uf midrange cap and undstood that if I ran say a Mundorf Supreme 10uf and a Duelund 3.3uf you ended up with say a fairly high % of what was capable of the better cap?
Undertow I heard distict improvements going to even one Sonicap and a Mundorf Supreme. (very cost effective too)
I heard improvement again with the SIO and Supreme. Then again with a Duelund and Supreme. So it can not just be the weakest link. (must be some combination of the two)
I will be ordering a second Duelund to see if two are twice as good as one. I expect not but am not sure.
I do not mean to say anything against Mundorf either guys as I thought them VERY good and only upon installing the Duelund's things go to another level. Also I would not consider Duelund's unless one really liked their speakers and were going to hold on to them for life.
I will still be using Mundorf's with the Duelund's for a cost benifet. I just have a itchy trigger finger to start buying more (Duelund's) to get on with this but am going to do the burn in.
I am thrilled with the sound but of course like everyone else if a Supreme would do it for a fraction of the cost and not hear a difference of course that is what I would do. |
Anyone know this?
http://www.tempoelectric.com/caps.htm
Tempoelectric recommends mixing caps to cancel each other out. Has anyone tried this? I sure hope it works that way. A Supreme/Duelund combo would cut costs dramatically. If it makes the sound even better that would be excellent! Tempo says that each brand of cap has it's own signature.
May be why my intitial impression was that Duelund/Supreme seemed better the Duelund/SIO? (that combo did sound bright) I will check that more.
Any advice? |
Put back the SIO with the Duelund's and I know guys wait till break in but I still hear a upward tilt. I hear caps with the Supreme's/Duleund's I could not fault.
I can not even hazard a guess at the best combo for the midrange. Any guesses where to start in % of 13uf Mundorf Supreme and % Duelund?
400 hour break in. Holy smokes I be till Christmas doing this. Someone mentioned how to do this without having to listen or have on for 400 hours.
So far I agree with Tempoelectric. That the SIO has somewhat a top end emphasis. The Supreme SIO combo was good but SIO Duelund is bright washed out and does not have the naturalness as with the Supreme's.
So far the combo is Supreme/Duelund or Duelund/Duelund (which I have not yet tried).
I know I know wait till break in but the Duelund/Supreme sounded awesome at 20 hours. |
Ran another 6 hours on SIO with the Duelund. Impression still the same. I could hear from upstairs (speakers in the basement) the over emphasis on the top end.
I switched back in the Supreme just to listen before bed.
Love the balance. I also ordered another Duelund. Not expecting a improvement or much with two in fact I expect it to get bright. Of course I am just guessing.
Tempoelectric talked about using two differnt kinds of caps to cancel their signature's out. I know you guys say to wait until burn in fully done and I of course am not argueing but as the hours tick on all the caps my fav combo is still the same and by the same amount. I can see caps getting smoother but too much top end to go away???? Can't see why?
The tweeter caps are in series and I find them great together but there is only one 13uf midrange cap. So do two different caps work the same way in parallel??
This I have no idea what to do? How much Supreme how much Duelund? or even if the same thing applies to midrange? |
For the mids I am thinking of ordering in even numbers say increasing the amount of Duleund to Supreme until I have reached the cost benefit point. Does that make sense or is a bigger cap and fewer better? |
Kijanki I have read that review (very good as well) I read so much cap stuff trying to avoid wasting money.
Kijanki here is a even more complete test with a lot the same results. I find this one even better!
http://www.tempoelectric.com/caps.htm
I likely think this better if only I agree with the slightly different results. Tony Gee had the Sonicaps not much below the Mundorf Supreme I did NOT find this to be the case and agree with Tempoelectric on Class D for Sonicaps. I also agree with Tempo Electric on the Supreme being better than the Silver in Oil in balance and Tempo has the Supreme second only to the Duleund. Believe me I was not expecting that! (for the Supreme to be that good)(or am I trying to get a cap Holy war going)
I like that TempoElectric's tests were over several years and that some cheap caps were near the top and some companies cheaper caps (meaning Mundorf) ranked higher than the more expensive ones. Tempo also has some very expensive caps ranked very low. (meaning not all about $)
Tempoelectric is also says they recommend mixing caps to cancel the caps sound out. I will be trying that likely this weekend with 2 Duelund's on the tweeter. If I hear the effects of the Duelund I will have to say everything Tempo has said is correct to me. I hear NO cap with the Duelund/Supreme.
When this all started (rebuilding crossover) I contacted B&W to ask what they used in their new Nautilus. They said Supreme. I asked them not Silver in Oil and they said, no. They said they auditioned SIO but went with Supreme.
I am just saying Mundorf Supreme is a very good cap for a very reasonable price. I find Tony underrates it and agree with Tempo on the Supreme.
I am very glad though that both have taken the time to do this. |
Kiljanka I can not say about the Audiocaps. I have never heard them. I also can not say if they work with Solens. I can only say I thought SIO was what I wanted and only bought the Duelund's because of the rave. I "thought" Supreme would be a workhorse cap that was good but boring but found it to be very good "with" the Duelund. My other Duelund will be here on the weekend and I will have a better grip on the effects of one or two Duelund's. I can say that you find a little about caps by what the other person thinks. Often I hear slight tilt with SIO and then when put with Duelund's not good. Of course this is only in my speakers and may not mean anything to any other. There of course is personal taste. I can say the Duelund's to me have a "live" feel like no other I have heard.
Teflon has a better rating in Electronics but I am only doing the crossovers and even then it was only out of necessity. (mine are worn out) |
Stormen
Thanks for the link.
I will be reading up on this. I am very interested now. I will let you know on the 14 days. They sounded excellent right out of the box with the Supreme's. But two Duelund's even more dynamic but could use a little settle down which may happen.
Did you compare their inductors to others? Are they worth the extra cost? Duelund is NOT cheap! |
Johnk is not most tube gear from a lot the same design? How did the Fisher sound before the rebuild? I find that a lot of the rebuild people want to fix the old gear say your 500c that is not worth a lot of money so they put caps is based on the current market value and not the replacement value of product new.
I have found that with the Klipsch crossover rebuilds as well. I can understand why too. If one paid $1k to $1.5k for Lascala's a $200 or $250 crossover rebuild seems economical. What I found tough was I wanted as good as new in every way or better and that is not happening for $250!
I did like that Tempoelectric did rank the vintage caps (Sprague Vitamin Q) and said they were a smooth but somewhat soft sound, not the worst combo for horns.
It also shows that exactly what I found is that it is not that easy to replace the original oil caps that were "voiced" for the Klipsch. Maybe the Supreme with the SIO was better than new and Duelund/Supreme is much better (especially for critical listening) but the Duelund/SIO (at big $) not better than original in all ways.
My Fisher x100d is I believe the same as the 500c without the receiver. My main stuff was/is all Linn. I only bought the Fisher because it sounded so much better with the Lascala's. With the bad caps the Linn would peel your ears off! Before the caps went bad though it sounded very good with the horns.
I will be do some "voicing" with the Linn gear later. |
Merganser.
I have only gave the Sonicaps 30hrs yes. They lacked dynamics (of Mundorf) more than smoothness. After 30hrs I installed one Supreme (in the circuit) and could notice a big improvement in dynamics. Sonicaps are not hard sounding to me just no life. I can not understand where the "life" would come from later. They are very tiny! To me #1 thing in the cap was to match the originals fantastic dynamics "live" feel. My wife did the double blind on the Sonicaps (not knowing which speaker they were installed in) and said Wow! that is a "HUGE" differenece those are wayyyyy better the problem was she was pointing to the vintage caps. I will reinstall the Sonicaps just to confirm feelings on them.
TempoElectric on (they rate Class D Sonicap Gen I)
"While not offensive, this is an inexpensive cap that sounds that way. Bargain hunters would be better served using a Russian Teflon or Mundorf MKP". |
Merganser sorry to be so critical on Sonicaps. I do agree they sound "similiar" to Mundorf Supreme in that both are neutral. What I did notice when the Mundorf went in is that there was less congestion. The Mundorf's had more "life" but the sound was similiar. I think that explains how Tony Gee had the Sonicaps only slightly below Supreme and Tempo had Sonicaps in Class D. We all hear things slightly different.
The thing that shocked me with the Sonicaps is that putting them in made the Klipsch sound like a standard speaker. I never would have thought they could.
So far everything TempoElectric has said to me has been bang on. The Duelund they said was 2 or 3 x as good as Supreme but cost 6x as much and I even think that is likely true. The tough part in this hobby is 2 or 3x better (that is a lot better) and is worth a LOT to some and not so much to others and even what Tempo said on using the Duelund only in expensive speakers that you plan to keep. I agree with that.
If my Linn speakers needed a rebuild I would likely go Supreme. (if at all) The Duelund's would drive the cost up to high in which I could get better Linn speakers at that cost or go Aktiv and not need crossovers at all. |
Merganser the difference from Sonicaps and Duelund's is like they are from a different planet. The one Duelund cap (paired with the Supreme) is a bigger differnce than going from my NAD CD player (20 years old) to the Linn Karik which was almost 8x the price. One thing I can say is crossover caps make the most difference of anything I have heard. The effects for the good and bad are HUGE!
Putting in the Duelund was like listening to the song for the first time! If you check back in my posts my WIFE could not believe the difference from Sonicaps and the old film in oil. She thought the one speaker was broken! The only problem was she was pointing to the old caps (as the one she liked) Horns for good or bad let you hear everything. |
Second Duelund is in.
I will put it in tonight. I am expecting it to be too much and the speakers start to sound like the caps. All will not be lost as I need the Duelund for the other speaker. I just want to know if one Duelund is very good is two better? |
