I would with an educated assessment of what I have experienced say the CAST vs. VSF in a very critical or higher power application will most likely have an edge in some cases, again depending on the application..
However I have experienced as with many things I really know that the VSF in a speaker vs. a Cast I would give the edge to the VSF simply sonically being not too much of a good thing or whatever, and the fact it is definitely at the helm via point of diminishing returns already I am sure, and I feel the same with the MR caps, Even the audio note silver due to cost, or the V-cap would be a turn in the wrong direction in my opinion regardless just based on cost to performance difference alone. Especially looking at the type of speakers or overall frequency range we are talking about here... I still feel the best for the money but impossible to use in most applications due to the physcial size is the Clarity MR now. |
By the way volley, the MR's are about 25% cheaper than the SIlver/Gold Oils mundorfs top dog, and are about Half the price of the Duelund VSF Cu series
So they are more cost effective and materials used in them is a little more reliable from the history of caps as it goes I guess, as nobody really knows how long the new range of Oil caps will last without breaking down, never really tested time reliability, and I am not making a case for it here at all just thought it was worth mentioning especially with the cost involved obviously deciding to buy these kinds of caps.. |
Well my only cavet over the issue is being such a supreme cap so to speak is only being used in a very limited frequency response application.. I would say for the money at that point I hate to say but the VSF is probably 99% of it and you would never know the difference.... If it was a full range audio signal in a tube electronic along with being a major piece in the signal of the system I could see some slight advantage possibly of the cast...
Other than that I am just speaking from an outside point of view knowing I would never pay that much especially for the type of application here. Your electronics might come into play more than you wish after running the cast because now you might have moved to another facet of this thing and really need to feed those horns with something VERY quiet and dynamic to get the optimal results, your pair of capacitors in cost now virtually outweight the entire worth of the whole system it seems.
There is however some glimmer of hope, I never knew the background noise a cap could filter until I heard the MR's, they are dead silent, and I thought the other caps were dead silent before the experience! I assume the cast could have similar results due to this whole talk on internal vibration control character these very new hi end caps are addressing.
Good Luck |
I think you mis understood the comment... Point being the caps you are using in a crossover are only handling each portion separatley, in otherwords you are using a cap to feed each driver which is only producing a very limited range of audio response. Use a cap in an amp or preamp etc.. And it is feeding the entire range at all times.
\Your dividing up the bands and thats the point of a crossover in the first place. Again simply illustrating there might be a true point of diminishing returns here, using your mundorf on a woofer alone for example will probably perform nearly identical to a CAst or any other in most speakers.. The cast would show more of its performance optimaly on a mid or tweeter alone so to speak.
And in a full range application literally output caps directly in a signal of the electronics exhibit much more of what a cap is capable in with my experience.. Much why many like to use these V-caps and other teflons as they have a bit higher power handling and complete frequency spectrums.. Again in a loudspeaker even these guys testing only used and state that mundorf or duelund was tested in loudspeaker application only for example, mainly because they are too large in size and or just not really designated to be electronic device caps, Although the mundorfs have very high voltage ratings, and thats fine. I have used Mundorfs top caps in electronics, it was much better suited in the crossover, however the clarity MR's and Jantzen superiors are much better in these applications for instance of electronics. |
By the way I think you are very wrong in that I don't believe in the importance of the crossover caps, I have spent more time and money on speakers and caps than some have on the systems my self in the past!! I just learned there is a certain approach and variables to look at meaning one cap being good universally is very hard to find all the time.. And only reason as a universal cap for the money the MR's are the best yet in this realm my opinion
You are going on a one time experience in just getting a more echo and not really considered refined sounding horn in the first place to calm down and spread out, nothing to much of a miracle did you find here(no offense)
You have spent a lot on caps an a very short time and limited application so what you hear is probably correct, but by no means the best and most efficient method for every situation, so I simply offered a little more logical and more or less true approach to see what is truly necessary or effective for the purpose at hand. You choose to not chance it and spend much more than necessary to be done and never have a question you have the best of the best, thats fine, just suggesting for those where money cannot be spent and they really want to have a solid approach to this, its not always the answer to believe the best has to be all one thing, there is a balance, and it can be obtained without going as far as the combo of using only the like second most expensive capacitor in the world on a 500 dollar pair of speakers. Although I admit I hear what you do in that I would many times now believe a 500 dollar pair of speakers with the best crossover available can beat the pants off a speaker in the 5000 or 10,000 range with a 2 dollar Solen cap in it. |
Yes I was contacted about the resistors as well
Even though expensive for a resistor 15 bucks is still easily going to sell more than 500 per pair of capacitors for sure! And many more are willing to take the (non) refundable risks if they don't like the 15 dollar resistor over a custom set of capacitors that will be worthless and very expensive if you decided not to use them. So its pretty simple to see the popularity difference and why they would sell many more duelund resistors in partnership with some 30 dollar mundorf caps vs. people taking a huge chance on probably the second most expensive made capacitors in the world :-) You gotta be as nuts as us to even consider it! |
Volleyguy
Shipped to who? You or just from duelund to partsconnexion? |
Yeah well I have had the run around for about 3 weeks now.. They first said they shipped on the 1st, than that they left the 10th(friday) or something, now they say finally they shipped this last couple days and they were to be in yesterday or today, still nothing... Not sure if they are just stringing everyone along to make it look like its on the other side being the issue, and know its a very expensive order so trying to make it seem like some kinda customer service, they could not even come up with what carrier they use to get them from denmark, or tracking #, nothing, or just flat out can't get them because of customs or something.. I have been reading canada is seriously backed up at the border, so who knows. I wish there was a distributor in the states, now we gotta wait to ship them back thru customs into the states all over again... |
Volleyguy I see..
Well not sure on my math here, but you have now been waiting actually 3 months for those caps if you ordered at the end of july, not 5 weeks as you stated earlier. Thats a big difference, so obviously this issue is quite a bit longer at this point. |
Well hopefully they come thru at some point.. Thats all we can say now! |
I believe still the king of top expense is the Audio note silvers starting at like 1800 or something each in low values, I could be wrong. |
Halcro
What values are those? |
I think to gain the benefits of the cast would need to be really critical applications... Main thing is that duelunds caps are so huge you would never build an entire crossover inside the speaker anyway in most cases and end up with them in a separate enclosure, which I start to see even less advantages in the tone aspect buying the cast over the vsf in my. Man I can't believe even the 5.6 is that huge! |
Point being I believe that the 2% more you may or may not hear with Cheaper drivers in a far simpler 1st or second order crossover its just not complex enough to spend 100% more or something for a very slight window of difference.. I am sure the VSF is a world class cap and in most cases is the true ceiling for the point of diminishing returns.. Again to me a critical application for a cap would be in a Full range electronic piece running the entire frequency range, or VERY complex multi driver type line array speaker..
But remember the cast was more or less developed to close the gap in the extreme case and really was more designed to overcome the lower voltage applications of the VSF.. The cast simply can take more power, my application and most other speakers especially being in the 90 db to 100 db efficiency range will never see that kinda power stress. You have to pick and choose your battles somewhere, my cutoff was at a point that the caps outweight cost and the performance of the possibilities in a speaker design themselves. |
Oh and partsconnexion did ship my parts today finally, they will be in tomorrow for installation.. My crossover is simple and uses only a 1.75 uF cap on the first leg of my horn.. Should be a sweet result I think :-)
If I was running a 1000 watt mono block, with a 85 db really Hi grade driver system in a more exotic speaker I could see where the Cast could come into play... |
I am sure the Cast are good and so are the VSF, I think they might sound a little different but probably not better or really preferable in certain given applications. But hey good luck, its a great cap I am sure, at this point no need to be concerned about it. |
Well again the Cast can take the heat so to speak.. The VSF would not be trusted in some high voltage applications.. The casing alone on the VSF seems to be a pretty much basic just get the job done, and its simple which is why I feel its very good to any speaker application the fancy finish on the Cast is for high voltage something Duelund did not focus on until now it seems..
Sometimes the more straight forward and natural the better I have learned.. No doubt the Cast is another level for the Esoteric, but at the same time the Esoteric sound is not one I seek, the VSF seems to get a little bit of a rep for a slight lean toward warmer and more open..
The cast might be a little more "Controlled" but I am looking for more relaxed especially with a horn, thats why I know the Duelund silver graphite resistors although well within price range to risk them will not work out as well for me as like the straight heavy duty new Mundorf Resistors that are super natural sounding, and only cost 1.20 each :-) |
Stormen not sure you mentioned your application or sizes of cast caps your using? Can you enlighten what you did with the cast vs. the vsf?
Not sure, however they are for higher voltage.. Any cap is rated lower than it is from what I am told, for example duelund explained to me that the 200 volt rating for example is really capable of taking on 350.. Seems most caps virtually follow this.. however the cast are quite a bit higher at probably taking on about 800 to 850 volts.. Regardless its not really a point of the disscussion anyway, it was just simply stated that they made a higher voltage cap in which however the cast inherited the trait so be it.
Thanks |
They did it seems just in the past couple months come up with a higher voltage VSF design, this is rather current however, and I think it changes in Tiers of capacitance however I could be wrong, and I was explained for example a 1 uF cap is only done in a 400 volt version. |
Volleyguy...
Again as a warning, my suggestion you have to really remember here you can only expect in some way to end up being as good as the speaker is... I would suggest since going this far you need to probably build outboard crossovers, re-wire with better cable internally, probably deaden the cabinets further, possibly some simple bracing, maybe putting new footing on the speaker via spikes or some other means of coupling or de-coupling to the floor...
I mean it is all critical in taking a design to the next transparency level, your kinda just taking the same old desert receipe and dumping more whip cream on it vs. changing the receipe a little. Again you were kinda warned about this and spending what you did without maybe addressing some other issues.
You will still need a far better INductor on your woofer to really open up, and you also have the issue of being into a more complex situation since this is a 3 way speaker your working with and the midrange is always the hardest in the design.
Good Luck |
I do understand that, I realize it was a "maintenance" type approach, however you spent more on a couple small pieces than the speakers were worth so might as well get some full benefits out of the time and experience of it. |
Not attempting to bring this thread back to life, but I found this interesting thread... Volleyguy will get off reading this :-) Still not sure if you ever changed out those woofer inductors this might point you in the right direction. By the way I have used the duelund VSF's now on my horns with the Jantzen superiors Bypassed with the Vishay MKP's in the woofers backed by the 12 gauge copper foil Alpha core inductors, identical approach to Tony Gee.. My crossovers now cost more than most completed speakers, but worth it.. See link
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?rspkr&1164387495&openflup&19&4 |
What size are the mundorfs? Supreme or Supreme silver oil?
Thanks |
The Claritycap MR Is just a killer cap.. in most applications my opinion will put out 98% of what a duelund does... Way better pricing on the smaller sizes.. Although not far behind in cost on the bigger values. |
Duelund_coherent_audio,
Let us have it please! |
The clarity MR's will be as smooth and blow away any mundorfs over time... Probably around 500 hours or so.. Mainly the Mundorfs are great for midrange and hi's on speaker crossovers, but if your using in amps or other electronic full range signal coupling applications the Clarity MR caps are the best period. Not even the other clarity caps come close, totally different caps and sound. |
Duelund resistors to help out here.... Bigger soundstage, better dynamics.
Mundorf Resistors for half the price of the MILLS at about 1 to 2 dollars each are slightly better... The mills seem to narrow the sound a bit, and are not as clean.
Yes the duelund resistors in series with a tweeter followed by a duelund cap are the best, very natural and wide open sound. I have tried several of above combos, and actually from the get go seemed that duelund resistors got a little of a "BRight" wrap due to being silver, but they are more smooth and transparent than all the other resistors, but they should be at like 15 times the cost. |
Dgarretson
You will have even more shocking results using the Clarity MR on your woofers than the tweeters :-)
Thats where the clarity really excells, best bass I have heard from any system, WAY more impact than any mundorfs have in Low frequency response as you state above. However they MR ain't cheap in some of the values needed for a woofer, but well worth it if you don't want to screw around. By the way the only other Cap that holds up nearly as well in Low frequency impact is the Jantzen superior, all the other clarity caps, mundorfs, hovlands etc... Are dry and aenimic in comparison to the rich perfect bass the Clarity MR and Jantzen can produce, but all around the clarity mr for full range frequencies are a more refined cap. |
Face, these guys have not even compared the MR's in the same application, also this guy is doing it so half A$$ with one cap of one type on one speaker etc... I have ruled out any kinda true comparison... Set up a "STEREO" FULL fledged finished pair of crossovers THEN compare, not one cap one speaker at a time and we can get a true bead on the final results. By the way even in the applications from Humble hifi or whatever this guy is basically using these in Tweeters, thats fine and dandy, no doubt some of the premium caps show their slight differences in the more enhanced hi frequencys applications.
I would not worry about it, use a mix as you see fit of VSF and MR's and your not missing much. No doubt if you have the extra money and Space going for the 100% Cast system could be very nice, but nothing wrong with those MR's as a matter of fact they could be better in one speaker or electronic than a duelund, taste, preference, and final tone will be different for all. |
Dgarretson, exactly my point, if you read back thru this now WAY DEAD thread facts are that even with the original posters testing and other amature builders thoughts bottom line is all this stuff especially with the testing of the cast was done in circuits following or leading another cap of different type #1, secondly they are all done in Mono testing...
I have discounted 99% of this thread as just bantering about how one small difference could be heard in 30 seconds after re-configuring a single design 15 times.. All of above are premium caps, all will do a good job, better or worse is impossible to pinpoint with everyones application, but the cast is not a miracle pepper cap on eggs. Run full out real tested finished crossovers with consistent cap use, and no doubt 100% clarity cap or Duelund VSF will then show you what is necessary, but this also has to be done with resistors and inductors of quality not from 1979 integrating the other drivers in the system..
No matter what you will find other issues. Inexperience or experience will show this, but no doubt there are some good shortcuts along the way and a 600 dollar capacitor or a 6000 dollar amplifier can make some kinda difference, but is it perfect? Nothing is in the end, but getting close is the key. |
Materials, yes I have a plastic man made knob on my preamp volume right now.. But when I change it to exotic natural wood from the forest of enchantment watch out!!! Again there are facts, and half truth myths in this hobby, not one size fits all sorry
And we will not get anything out of this accept each application will require something possibly different. |
What? First Not sure why contact enhancer would do anything accept dissapate like Flux once you hit it with heat and the solder actually would just clear it and adhears to the metal component directly most likely just pushing the contact enhancer out of the way or turning it into fumes...
Unless when you use a silver solder like WBT etc... When you apply it the gold and it actually melts and mixes into the solder while wet and gives you a gold solder connection sheen instead of bright silver?
I really don't see how this is of any benefit to a connection before or after soldering said connection. I have not tried it so maybe the treament simply melts and mixes into the solder while its liquid metal, and the gold is really that much better than the silver in the solder, don't know, but maybe the explained method here is just not making any sense.
Contact enhancers normally are to be used in order to lubricate and "Enhance" a connection point that is not permanently fixed by solder at all.. Such as the pins on the power cord to your wall giving the unlike metals in your outlet and your power pins a conductive liquid barrier due to mechanical movement and fit keeping it with full current flow and contact even if its a bit loose or not totally tight contacting all surface areas of the metal connection.
I have used it on Quick connects inside the speaker however where the cheap TIN spades on the drivers could use a good corrosion preventer and liquid conductive material without having to Fix the connect permanent with solder.
Your better off Sanding or Steel wooling your Crossover parts leads to break down the coating and then solder if you want a more prepped or clean joint, I just don't see the benefit of wasting a 100 dollar contact cleaner/enhancer on this joint and soldering it after. Again most likely if somebody does here an "Enhancement" from this, its most likely due to receiving the crossover parts and not cleaning them before solder, in turn simply applying an enhancer at more expense to give you that cleaner lead to solder.
Not arguing just don't get the reason, use some sand paper on the cap and inductor leads and probably get the same results, or just buy a solder with some gold content in it. |
Face the duelunds are better in speakers probably in most cases.. The Mr's might do something very special with certain designs or drivers...
However MR's are king for perfection in full range signal applications, meaning preamp outputs, amp coupling caps etc... Just as good as you can expect. |
Mingles, Truth is a cap is in "Parallel" for my Low frequency drivers
The Inductor is the important part on those woofs
I use Jantzen Superiors on the LF with excellent results.. However its overkill, a Solen cap could do just as well in most applications, only difference is probably tolerance is better on other caps to not float, but also vibration character is probably better as well
Beyond that I have done some friends X-over with just Mundorfs, Jantzens on the critical mid, tweets, and a cheap 2 dollar solen for the parallel cap in the LF with not too different results. Go for the best inductors on the woofers
|
And volleyguy back to your issue
HIGH Voltage.. Remember that term well! Check your house, I had the problems you have when I had Gear that was much less in power supply regulation, I.E. OLD vintage gear and caps. They like low Voltage much better
For example even my gear I own now runs best down around 90 Volts to 105 volts, and its high end, but when I was getting nearly 130 volts in at the outlet ouch!!! Get a step down transformer, or some type of power isolation devices and really hear what your gear to speakers sound like, any major voltage spikes etc
Are just gonna make your amps bias and or speakers "Go thin", starving them more for current
Simply stated you heard the inductors ready to rumble, but did not have full current delivery.. Check into what kinda voltage your amps are getting hit with and most likely reduce it to get better current delivery and full sound. |
The mundorfs are not a Voltage risk, however yes if they are any type of oil I would not use them as they will be in a possible leaking or high heat location..
By the way perfect Film bypass caps for electrolytics I have been using with Zero issues or failures over the years are the Solen Fast caps.. 400 volt, unless you have a really high power appication.
They are fairly small and compact, and they will sound the same in a power bypass cap just the same as a Duelund will! I have used them over the top grade Black Gates with excellent results..
Also use 1.0 uF size on everything and your fine as long as they will fit, any smaller value is almost pointless on big value uF electrolytic caps. One issue is they have exposed solid leads with no insulation dielectric, so you don't want them to touch anything. Otherwise you could pay 15 times the cost for a no more superior cap and use the Auricap yellows, or kimbers that are the same in the 600 volt versions which are harder to find, but they do have regular wire leads on them with insulation. |
Volleyguy again I hate to say it for like the 10th time
But your missing so many pieces of the equation looking into one Miracle cap and inductor to solve an entire speaker curve.. First you have very old strangley P.A. Pro like low excursion woofers your trying to improve.. The added mid glare is simply due to showing the weakness now in the woofers frequency range.. Probably will need to re-tune the cabinet being its a K-Horn DAMP the hell out of the sidewalls in the triangle and add mass to the basket of the woofer itself..
Also make SURE you have I would say a minimum of 12 gauge copper, but 10 gauge pure copper wire feeding the inductor and the woofer back just the same. You need to build a crossover on several points, not just a part swap, and problem is when your crossover was designed they did not have the types of tests and software to generically get those tolerances and values perfect. So that woofer could in fact be better with a different value inductor than the original was. I mean there is several factors to the hill your climbing. Good luck |
You can NOT really do a full film poly Solen power supply.. Basically due to most electrolytic caps are 100 uF up to 100,000 uF depending on what your doing
As well as voltage issues. Only thing you can do is take a good rated Electro cap like your ASC or whatever and lets say its 4000 uF mounted, its 630 volts AC rated or whatever, and take a Solen cap simply soldered parallel (bridged across) the 2 pins on your Electro cap
This is a bypass, same as a Crossover bypass taking a 10 uF cheap cap and using a .01 Duelund or something of Higher grade in parallel not really changing the value of the crossover point but simply putting a smaller better faster cap to enhance the results.
Bottom line is Electrolytics are typically cheaper, smaller, and HUGE value capacitors, you could never fit or use a Film cap of these sizes in those locations or applications. So thats why we are talking about taking a small Film cap which even a cheap solen is higher grade than the best Black GAte electro caps and basically bridging it across
AS the big value electrolytics are so big normally even 50 uF or 40 uf, in order to be effective from my experience and from others on the subject, use at least a 1 uF film cap to do the bypass
Be careful however these Film caps are only rated in VDC, so DC voltage, not AC
The caps cannot take nearly as much AC power as they can DC power due to the Plates have to take on the ALternating back and forth energy causing them to vibrate and shift much more than a DC application from my understanding.
Beyond that yes I have actually modded an entire power supply in a phono amp which is very critical for noise and overall quality to use the original big 1000 uF electrolytic caps, and bypassed them each with a Solen 400 volt DC rated fast cap 1 uF each. There was about 5 or 6 electros in this circuit if I remember correctly..
That being said your applications will vary, and I cannot recommend specifically using DC rated caps like this in all applications due to I have no idea how high of voltage you will actually see at these points
But I can say this, typically people building their own Differential Filters for AC power incoming to their system can and do use 600 volt DC rated, 800 volt DC rated, and 1200 volt Dc rated caps, that means they hook them directly inside their power outlets feeding their system. And they never have an issue as that is 120 volt plus coming staight from your outlet with 15 to 20 amps of current!
I believe that a DC 600 volt rated cap will at least take on 200 to 220 volts AC, and a 400 volt cap maybe a little less or more
Depending, But I am not an engineer and will not say that a cap would not Swell or explode under this! Mainly make sure its a GOOD film cap, and the dielectrics and sidewalls can take the heat. I mean from what I was told by a VERY high up the food chain in audio engineer that in fact I used some 800 volt dc and 1200 volt DC rated film caps for these applications and he was far beyond confident that even 50 years from now with fatigue these caps would never fail.
Again Hi end audio has no limits. There is no good standards, many things are WAY overbuilt for the task. Proceed with caution.
As for the results, well I can say this in my trials
Always fairly positive, Very quiet incoming AC power, very good frequency response, Lower distortion, better overall smooth sound without the edge or glare sometimes apparent with many cheaper electrolytic caps..
Good luck |
Elviukai
What I should have said with a SOLEN Bypass used even on top of the best electro is better than the single Electro alone in many cases... That being said obviously in most electrical applications of a power supply a solen 1000 uF or whatever does not exist anyway, but a Black gate with a solen bypass can still make it better..
But hey in some applcations maybe a flat black gate with no bypass is the better solution, neither here nor there from my understanding as the BG's are not even made anymore so taking some cheaper electros bypassed by a decent film is the best route for most cases. Thats my clarification. Proceed with caution! |
Volleyguy
Nope never had an issue, but I made sure I was WELL above any voltage ratings... And again this is stuff you are playing with that with different power supplies nobody can tell you directly what to do with it. |
Duelund makes any size, including custom... But if its not stocked at parts connexion takes an extra 3 weeks or more to get them. |
Its called "Hearing whats really upstream now"
I can tell you this, I just purchased the 8 gauge inductors from northcreek, they are the exact opposite results.. I am running Class A amps directly into them, excellent sound, very smooth, very warm... 125 db deathmetal sounds as smooth as butter!
So you have many other things to look at once again vs. one part you get hung up on. Keep matching you will find something at some point I would assume. But its not due to an inductor being inferior, its because many other things are. You can discount everything everybody says until you hear it yourself as many times as you like, just remember many have put a lot on the table for you to ponder. And by the way thought you had the NC inductor on your woofer? Not the horns?
Mine are now on the woofers and my horns are on ERSE 14 gauge perfect lays with Perfect sound. I have replaced Alpha core Ribbons just out of curiosity. However the Ribbons are really just as good, but different, they might be a little warmer but nowhere near as low of distortion as exhibited by the 8 gauge north creeks, they are virtually impossible of an inductor to saturate. |
For those interested in the comparisons.. I have now been able to try out Duelunds and the Clarity MR's in pure speaker applications head to head.
On Face's recommendation as stated in some threads the Claritys are probably a better cap, mixed however with the Duelund is probably the ultimate solution as they really do something special hand in hand on a crossover. He stated having more dynamics and a little clearer with the Claritys, but a little more texture from a Duelund, and ultimately using both for the application definitely shows a lot of the smooth natural sound of the Duelund, with some enhanced definition and dynamics of the Clarity MR's.
Cost wise this also seems to be the most effective, minus going completley Cast caps which just ups the pricing in most cases 3 times more.
As for performance value, definitely the Clarity MR wins. They are far better in the mixes or on there own over the mundorfs in the applications I have used now. Claritys are perfect in electronics, and seem to be mostly just as good in crossover networks being isolated to limited frequency response. Clarity MR for full range applications still for the price nothing matches in my opinion. |
Again I have no idea how you can evaluate each component like this in MONO, yes you will get FAR better effect with every cap and inductor in stereo pairs on any speaker. Thats why to me a lot of this was a throw away thread, I am sorry.
Until you can give a real evaluation with BOTH speakers set up correctly, running equal parts to hear the real deal in soundstage etc
Not one speaker running with one supposed better part and just shifting your balance knob on a to the other speaker and saying OH I can hear one is better than the other, we don't have much to go on, because in this case not all things are equal from you are saying.
So yes I suggest if your serious about one part, order its companion and then put it in to the the real test running as it should on both sides of the room and see what comes together.
Its actually kinda strange many have fed the beast on this thread as it stands not reading or realizing you are evaluating a critical soundstage and passive component on one channel at a time
You asked the question so I say YES order it so you can hear the entire balanced soundstage of caps and inductors!
I don't believe any of the Tony Gee or whoevers reviews you refer to were doing this in a mono test on stereo speakers, I am sure they had a Pair
Beyond that believe me when I say even the more "Ruff around the Edges" caps or inductors you are stating don't do justice will actually sound smoother when you hear equal signals on both sides at once opposed to one sided mono killing the whole thing off in the first place.
I would like to hear back from Duelund on the thoughts of evaluating their caps and inductors in mono for speaker pairs?
Good luck |
I made a mistake this process would not even be really "Mono" but half of a signal! Half stereo missing many things on recordings that would be on the other channel. So this makes it even worse to evaluate stereo recordings as you are if I understand the way you are trying to come to these conclusions? |
Acoustics, by the way this plays a HUGE part in what your hearing. First off running one speaker in one corner at time, lets imagine your cranking your stereo and a channel goes out, blows whatever.. What does this sound like? CRAP regardless how good the components used are! Fact is your missing now the Center image in the room, and yes DISTORTION goes up substantially because you hear all the artifacts of the room on that side no longer being integrated and even cancelled by the other side of the room
Also Recordings for example, I can play one that is very GUITAR heavy to the left channel lets say, cut that speaker off and the right losses a bunch of the info in the right. Vocals foget it, Midrange forget that too as you cannot have a warm centered voice and sound stage in the room anymore because your missing a channel. Bass as well now you are OVERLOADING one side and it sounds like Crap.
So again I would like to know how this is an accurate style at all for really evaluating true hi end stereo 2 channel? Also just a note, I believe you are evaluation CORNER horns? This is even worse, they are only echoing out of one corner or the other, No breathing room as they are smack dead in your corners, so yes you basically would have a boom box blasting at you from one side of the room evaluating one Crossover at a time vs. Stereo.
So please you have spent the money, its time to get the Pairs to make your system work correctly and you might find that all this back and forth is not necessary and you will get a great sound already. I understand the stuff is expensive, but you chose to get into this in the first place, so its best to do it right at this point, doing yourself a huge favor getting a true balanced sound all together, and no doubt 2 channels with a "Sonicap" will sound better than ONE with a duelund :-) |
So then north creek on the woofers, Duelund on the mids and tweets sounds like the most dynamic presentation. Obviously there are advantages to having "more power output" or efficiency to your large 15" woofer if your using K-horns with the north creek not needing nearly as much power. Thats my take, and then duelunds yes make sense on horns. So if you were using the north creek on the horns than it makes some sense, did you try anything on the woofer? Or are you using the original inductor on the woofer and comparing these 2 inductors on the midrange? |
I can say one thing, Plastic has nothing to do with it. Let the argument begin... |
Gallant_diva
You make a huge missing point in this discussion, Applications will many times dictate the answer not so much what we want or don't want. For sure in your needs this would make zero sense.
However for example I have speakers with only a 1.75 uF cap, and a 5.7 uF cap... Its like a second order, and yep I use a single 12 gauge Alpha core ribbon inductor. In the cap positions the Duelunds only cost me a few hundred. So it makes sense for simplicity, and size vs. value. And truth is yes they are far better than the Mundorf oils I previously used in this application. Then I went to an even better for the sound value of the Clarity MR caps(in my opinion).
This still does not "Defy" the law of "Point of diminishing returns"... In a case where the design is so complex and of large values for sure you would not be in a position to ever justify or gain the complete advantage of caps to do what you need to do ultimately, and so you made a very good choice of how to get there.
It all comes down to the prioritys of the system in the first place, I prefer super hi efficiency, very simple crossover designs, or NO crossover at all, obviously an apogee is quite the opposite with very low efficiency and complex crossovers. That does not mean that they won't sound as good or better, just that for me the point of diminishing returns would be reached and I would most likely stay away from that approach in the first place personally. But somebody will do it and enjoy it for sure. Great system you have! |
Gallant_diva
I think you mis-read my comments, I said "You make a huge missing point" in this equation, Not that you missed the point at all, I said quite the opposite in your favor :-) |
