My auditory receptors communicated to my brain most recently that when I installed a pair of .68 Clarity Cap MR's directly across the 12 volt input of my hybrid Altmann multi dac that I was hearing more air molecules in my listening room. In fact this simple addition made more difference than the 130,000 mfd. storage bank coming off the battery on its way to the dac. This bank of caps are bypassed by film and foils. The MR's at their point of entry made for a stunning improvement for a somewhat minimal cost. Very easy to implement. Tom
Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil
I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.
I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.
There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)
In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)
So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.
1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.
Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.
So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.
different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.
All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!
Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.
For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?
When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)
The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.
The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.
I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.
There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)
In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)
So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.
1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.
Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.
So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.
different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.
All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!
Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.
For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?
When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)
The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.
The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.
Showing 31 responses by theaudiotweak
Vn 101606 Years ago I worked for a dealer that had multiple locations in the mid-west and we sold many pairs of Dunlavy speakers. I took a deposit of 15k on the first pair of SCVI's to be delivered.. almost a year to get those babys. I had many conversations with Mr. Dunlavy during the waiting period. I had purchased a pair of SCIV's for my personal use and like everything I do I take it apart in hopes I can make it sound better. Easy thing to do was to replace all the steel and aluminum fasteners with brass. Non ferrous material interferes less with the intended electrical field than does steel which bends the same field. I did this around all the drivers including the delicate face plate and dome which is held together with metric steel screws. Nice apparent improvement. Brass as a material is very musical and pleasant to hear. Next I removed the crossover and then replaced all the steel brackets and screws with brass. Again an apparent improvement. While inside the crossover area I made a record of all the component values and their placement and physical size. Over the course of time I made many changes that proved to be upgrades. In retrospect the best bang for the buck was the replacement of the very inexpensive resistors with bridges made of multiple Vishay metal films. Dunlavy himself told me I was wasting my money to do this swap. Today I would use the Duelunds as replacements because of their value and cost. The difference that late night was so extreme I asked my daughter to come and listen. What did you do to make such a difference she asked. I showed her those component parts that were swapped. She had no I idea what she was seeing but new what she was hearing as I had recorded her many times playing classical guitar between those very speakers. Super quiet yet highly resolving. There was one other major undertaking that actually made for a greater improvement and that was to remove everything inside the speaker cabinet and paint the interior surfaces with Cascade V-Bloc. This paint is drawn in to the pores of the mdf dry like concrete and seals and stiffens the cabinet and blocks the sound of the glue mixture and its damping ill affects. After I did this the sound stage was as wide as my room is wide 22 feet. Okay, I did replace all the caps and inductors and the wire but the biggest bang for the buck was the replacement of the resistors. In retrospect I would not change the factory supplied inductors in the Dunlavys. The inductors have a Q value as well as their own measured inductance. Changing from a 14 gauge inductor to a 8 or 10 gauge inductor not only decreased the dc resistance but also changed the damping of the entire system. So change what ever else you want but leave the inductors in place. All of these changes were performed over 15 years ago, one at a time over the course of a 18 months or more. If I still had those speakers today I would apply methods of resonance grounding to the drivers and the crossover components..Tom |
Looking in from time to time. I now see people using or wanting to use Dyna-mat and lead shot. Both these materials will decouple the speaker from supportive material/enclosure which was originally intended to couple energy..though poorly understood and executed. The use of decoupling materials erodes the benefit of horn loading which is designed to maximise the use of acoustic energy. Materials suggested for use here actually store energy and increase the decay time. I would suggest the use of steel shot or bronze shot in bearing form and not just random slag from some machine shop refusge or the use of any leaded materials. Both the steel shot or bronze material and shape will maintain reactivity and maintain the desired resonance control with out killing the live dynamics. Even with these more active materials there is a fine line of overfill before you mute the sound. air and dynamics. You can hear this happen in a progressive fashion. For internal wall surfaces of an enclosure there is a water based latex material that when painted on a flat surface will dry hard like concrete and have a rough granular finish. This finish as it drys is drawn into the pores of the wood or mdf, sealing and stiffening the material and helping to seal off the mdf/glue and all of it's ill affects and gross influences to the sound . Tom |
Houstonreef, Listen first to a selection you are most familar with. Mute the system but leave the volume control un touched. Then do the following. If you have square tubing as pillars. The unused adjustment holes in the pillars should be filled with short brass machine screws. Thread these in and snug them up do not use any adhesive. Fill all these holes leave none open. Make sure these are 100% brass and not nickel plated. At this stage do not attempt to fill the tubes. Then listen to the same selection at the same volume. Post what you hear. Tom |
VB 1-x from Cascade Audio is the paint on or spray on thick acoustic paint that helps seal off the bad sounding stuff bleeding thru your drivers or cabinet. I like this product because it drys hard and is not a soft damping energy storing energy robbing soft material. Please keep in mind a speaker cabinet is a passive radiator. Even a sub box crossed over at 50hz has harmonics generated and passed thru the cabinet enclosure..it also is a passive radiator. As for the horn speakers. If there are holes in the stand then there is discontinuity in the material and the stand. The sides with the holes are disconnected from the other sides. If your thought is to ground these rails to the floor which is the best for sound quality then you need to have a controlled surface material that transmits vibration in a linear fashion and time. The Brass screws completes the connection within the vertical rails. There is so much more that can be done in this manner...to drivers, enclosures, components of crossovers as well as the entire crossover mounting method it's all a continuum. Most manufacturers don't go to the level that an informed hobbyist will. Actually many of these vendors see no value or lack any understanding of some of these methods mentioned here. |
You can by this direct or from Parts Express. I paint this on speaker baskets as well as cabinet internals. Also use on tweeter face plates and then paint over with a clear poly.The rough surface reduces fz stick. Used this product on my SC4's years ago.Did one and the stage went to the wall..Had to do the other so I wouldn't have to sit so far off axis..Tom http://www.cascadeaudio.com/car_noise_control/pdf/VB1X_101612.pdf |
Volleyguy1 Mechanical coupling is just that and generally has no design bearing on capacitors other than maybe how they are wound and most importantly under the context of resonance control..how they are mounted. Direct mechanical coupling is a method where devices are hard mounted and coupled without the use of glues or soft mounting insulating materials. Tom |
Thanks Dave, I follow F1 closely especially the Lotus Team. We each had one of those back in the day. I went on line and checked out the link to the Williams Team and their hybrid technology and the division of Clarity Cap that provides some of their components. Many new products useful in audio as well? I look to F 1 racing for ideas on room tuning and acoustic control devices for my own listening space and speakers. These teams utilize the the energy flow across their driving machines instead of killing off what's natural, unlike most devices designed and used in audio rooms. Tom |
The weakest link is the worst part. The largest difference in a rebuild in my Dunlavy speakers many years ago was replacing the 10 cent sand cast resistors with bridges constructed of several Vishay .8watt metal film type at each location. The difference was staggering. If signal goes thru it..then consider it's replacement. As far as ground is concerned, energy is always in search of ground so its always in the signal path. I was told by Mr.Dunlavy any of this would make zero difference in his or any other speaker. The result for me was huge. Tom |
I use product called AVM to control resonance on wire and connections. I have also used it as an adhesive like material between surface such as 2 capacitors. Somehow some way it seems to reduce distortion and noise without all the bad that comes along with soft materials that damp. AVM drys like rock. Another similar product to apply though less effective on small parts is Cascade V Bloc. This is very good inside speaker boxes and on driver frames. Also drys like stone. This can be purchased by the gallon. I am a believer in the use of materials with similar mechanical impedance. No goop, no rope a dope, no slow. Tom |
Flat bottom caps such as the Duelund and Jupiter can be enhanced even further when mounted and secured on Audio Points .2's and APCD2's. I acquired a few years ago Clarity Cap DTAC caps that have a center taped bobbin and bolted these in my outboard crossovers. Between the caps and the tone wood I placed the coupling discs and 1.0 points and drew the capacitor down and secured thru the bottom bobbin hole. When you adjust the tension of the caps to the coupling points you can affect their apparent speed. I had these caps cryo'd several times and cut flying leads of 12 gauge copper foil. I performed the same surface mounting to the inductors as well. I clamped these from the top side with hard wood and secured with brass hardware. All devices are hard mounted and direct coupled no soft materials to impede energy transfer. Tom.. Star Sound Technologies. |
Has anyone here compared a familiar fully broken in cap to one that was the same and identical and then cryo'd a couple of times? The performance gain in cryo'd parts is pretty amazing. Caps, resistors, diodes, transformers, outputs and even chassis parts take a jump up in sound quality. Avoid this treatment on mains caps. All this started with some Hitachi metallized and Orange Drop film and foils in bypass across the mains caps. I now have parts run at least twice some several times more. The benefit is permanent unless you melt it down. Drivers maybe next. Tom |
In the past I used 8 and 10 gauge inductors for bass and foils for upper mids and highs. My self and friend thought the round wire sounded best on the low end and the flat for the highs. We tried this on SC4's. The inductors were North Creek and Solo foils. For my current rebuild speaker project we wound our own from the same stock as above. When they are completed one day I will tell you how it all worked out. Tom |
Vicente, I would look at the ESA caps from Clarity Cap. http://www.claritycap.co.uk/products/esa.php I see these as a great value and are used by several high perception electronic manufacturers. I am sure you are going outboard with the crossover and if so you could parallel 8 27 uf caps to come really close to the value you need. If you purchased a total of 16 you could value match the sets left and right and probably hit very close to the desired 220uf value of the single Solen. The ESA 27uf's are available in both 250 and 630 volt films. I would not bypass these caps. I would keep all the values and characteristics of the caps the same. I made this mistake years ago with my Dunlavy re-build by mixing in some bypass caps to match values. I think I was hearing the small values and not the whole. Tom |
I agree. One great cap would be better than a poor cap and a better bypass cap. You can also mechanically direct couple flat caps like the Duelund some Jupiter's and the Clarity Cap Dtac series. This method will move resonant energy off the cap and the crossover mounting surface much faster than mounting with glue or silicon and ties.. Tom |
John Granted you have more vibration in the speaker box than out. But your acoustic space is also a speaker box of sorts. A passive device in line has signal running thru it will also corrupt the signal with its own material resonance. Devices that are highly damped actually store much energy over a longer time frame so they also needed to be mechanically grounded doesn't matter if its in a cabinet or not.Tom |
Bill Maybe the inductor change worked for you and not for me because your speakers have no level matching requirements. If the inductor gauge of the Solens were both 16 gauge and the North Creeks were both 10 gauge it seems that any DCR difference would be linear and track with the drivers. Man that made my head hurt. Tom |
I suppose you found this...http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=3794. Let us know how it all finishes out. You could use direct mechanical coupling methods for all these flat stack components as they are attached to the mother board. I would not mount these components with any soft materials..you will slow everything down. Tom |
Years ago I rebuilt my set of Dunlavy speakers with Vishay metal film resistors. Their top of the line in the mid 90's. These made more difference than any single part swap I ever made..tears of joy came into my eyes the difference was so huge. Cap swaps wire swaps inductor swaps were like so what ..when compared to the Vishay parallel resistor bridges. The new TX2575 nude Vishay resistors are even better now ..rated at .4 watts .7 watts peak. If you want a power rating suitable for a speaker then you need to purchase 10 of each single value and wire these 10 in parallel to make a suitable power wattage. A 10 ohm resistor would be made up of qty.10 100 ohm resistors. Power rating would be 4 watts 7 watts peak. These are vastly under rated devices. I use the Tx2575's all the way thu my mono blocs amps. A 10 ohm resistor built as described would cost around a $100. Much better sound than the North Creeks or the Mills and better than the older Duelund's which I am told drop in value over the course of a few years. If $100 seems steep for a resistor check this out. http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/lefson-french-high-end-analog-audio-devices-the-lefson-... When I redo my current crossover and simplify, I will be using the TX 2575's here as well. Tom |
Bill, I have built power resistors using Mills 12 watts as the element. Drilled thru the center of a .875 brass rod coated and set the resistor with Cascade Audio V-Bloc and placed the Mills inside, had these cryo'd. The Vishay's sound better..of course the Vishays were cryo'd as well. Much more open and off the face and out of box. Tom |