martykl, from what i remember, 9rw did own an earlier vsm model and had his room quite heavily damped to control his present speakers of choice. too bad he did not do what the merlins needed in this regard. later vsms, especially the mme/mxe are excellent with ss and tube amps as all of the reviews suggest. a much wider cross section of wire can be used and enjoyed on them too. we have come a long way since 9rw's time with the product.
best, b |
9rw, the vsm se was voiced around se triodes and is now, a 10 to 12 year old product. it has been out of production for at least 9 years. the millennium, the mm and the mme were listened to extensively with ss and tube amps and sound very different than the se. i'll bet you you had an ac bam. as i said we have gone a long way since you have listened to our product. the vt 100 was a great amp but the pre was not indicative of what you could have had for sound.
none the less, imho it is pointless to discuss the sound of a product that has not been made for almost 10 years and present it like it has a bearing on current production.
best, b |
9rw, the vsm se was voiced around se triodes and is now, a 10 to 12 year old product. it has been out of production for at least 9 years. the millennium, the mm and the mme were listened to extensively with ss and tube amps and sound very different than the se. the later models are more room filling and coherent. you may have even had an early ac bam. as i said, we have gone a long way since you have listened to our product.
the vt 100 was and is a great amp but the pre was not indicative of what you could have had for sound.
none the less, imho it is pointless to discuss the sound of a product that has not been made for almost 10 years and present it like it has a bearing on current production.
best, b |
9rw, you are entitled to your opinion but imho, you are very wrong.
the vsm is now a very mature and finshed design and is capable of remarkably life like sound with little or no distortion. there are different kinds of coherence and perhaps if you had heard one of the latest models you would understand what i am emplying. i equalize and filter bandwidth to control distortion components which all speakers are riddled with. the things that you did not like about the se are maybe, not there any longer.
but how would you know.
best, b |
and by the way 9rw, i have heard the arro and it is indeed a very good speaker system, especially for the price asked. but it does not do what the merlin is capable of doing. again imho.
best, b |
9rw, do i sense a little bit of sarcasm surfacing again?
the vsm was designed to be an all out effort for small to moderate sized real world environments. if it is used the way it was designed to be used, there is no reason it should not be a stellar performer for its listener. with its amplitude deviation being plus or minus 2.1 db from 35 hz to 19.5 khz, the superb drivers, the careful choice crossover parts (many proprietery) and the thoughtful design approach, this thing should be capable of enormous resolution and it is. it is easy to drive, offers wide bandwidth, it is efficient and distortion free. a product like this will make little things/changes very obvious to the listener. so when i tell you the cabinet was changed with new construction techniques for the new pan fiber cabinet material, polyeurathane glues used, new proprietery z foot coupling feet, foot orientation/fasteners, port tuning/anti chuffing design, internal damping materials to dacron fiber fill, bracing added and the minimizing of diffraction effects... can you hear a difference? well imho and to most others, it was "huge" as you say.
over the years we carefully worked with the networks too adding proprietery inductors, added q circuitry in the hf, changed wiring harnesses to proprietery cardas, cardas patented terminals, cryo and lead free lead to even bigger improvements in the sound.
just because it looks very similar to an earlier vsm doesn't mean it sounds like one. ever compared a strad to a yamaha violin? i have. they both look like violins but only the strad sounds like one.
you also keep mentioning people using $20,000 to $30,000 in ancillaries like it was bad or a necessity. we have people using very low powered low cost amps (nad, sugden, audio analogue etc.,) with zip cord or signal cable and from what they tell me, enjoying themselves a very great deal. at least the vsm does not cover up or hide the effects of expensive gear. it changes in sonic character in the way of completeness or oneness when a better match is found. but because it is neutral it does not embellish the the faults found in some pieces.
and last of all the price. you mention $11,500 like it is a rip or i over charge. the truth is, suggested retail is a function of cost and mark up. industry standard is 4 to 5 times and many mark up more so. some i know of go as high as 8 to 10 times. the vsm mxe cost me $3300 to build. this is a 3.5 time mark up and an industry low. you also mention that the speaker has gone up $6000. well the finish alone on the mxe costs merlin $850 a pair to have done. this reflects in $3000 in retial. this finish was not available at the time that the speakers sold for $6000. nor were many of the other parts included in current production. i think it would be more fair to compare apples to apples... in 15 years do you not think my costs have gone up? everything has gone up at least 30 to 60%. i made little profit at the beginning and i still do. now that i have taken the time to explain all this to you, try and be a little more fair minded.
enjoy memorial day. i got up early to take care of this for you.
best, b |
aktchi, you are absolutely right about this. however, i first responded to the string "after" a person made what are imo, incorrect assumptions based on a product that was designed 12 years ago. one that was designed with triodes in mind rather than a broader product mix. a voiced product and not what i call "a neutral concept" approach which i have followed since late 1999. what followed then were mean spirited comments and i simply defended myself and product. once you think you know everything and refuse to consider new ideas, it is really over for you and those around you.
life is all about learning.
best, b |
9rw, you jump in with both feet and say a bunch of nonsense pertaining to a situation you had with a 4th geneation discontinued product (from 10 years ago) and make it appear like it still has bearing today. this is both dishonest and confusing to those who read this forum.
then when i try to tell marty in an understated manner what the history is, you start to lose your cool and said mean spirited things. the one person who could have explained the difference bewteen the se and the mxe (marty) you blew off like a pompous know it all. well, 9rw, you are not the only musician who comes here, you are not the only one who has heard 100s of systems, read tecnical journals or even worked in recording venues. some of us even have a very significant technical understanding of this sound thing. we just use these experiences and knowledge differently than you appear to. sound is not a contact sport, it is about the joy of music and the effects on your heart and soul.
lets just say we agree to disagee and leave it at that because you are so closed minded you won't even allow yourself to see another way or learn something. one concept does not fit all.
i can hear you rationizing how different can the sound be with so many things looking so similar? the proof is in the listening and then, with first hand knowledge you can say your peace.
to many, the arc pres are known to have a recessive mid band. think about their reference speaker of years gone by. in a situation where the speaker is as linear as the vsm is, this would tend to stratify the treble and bass as your friend found. you called it garbadge, not i.
and your room may be damped pefectly for your vrs and sub but it is way over done for the merlins. i have been through this with you before, have you forgotten?
best, b |
9rw, i am not incredibly defensive just fair minded. i responded to your post in a very understated open minded manner as a gentleman would. you on the other hand lost your cool and became more pointed as time went on.
why waste time and effort answering questions when it is obvious from what you implied that because the drivers and cabinets seem silimlar that there could not be much change in sound. you implied it at first but then came right out and said it in the post above. to many it is a night and day improvement but they have smaller rooms and make assessments based on their qulaitative issues and not quantity due to a larger room needs. what these people are looking for is something that is different than you based on smaller room requirements. the vsm is not designed to fill a football field and you should not get upset with it because it doesn't. maybe that is what is wrong. you are upset because you purchased the the wrong product for your taste. if bigger speakers with more drivers make you happy, so be it. i am happy for you. you seem to want a larger speaker with more room filling qualities, even a sub. many do not. that does not make you right or wrong or them, right or wrong. each buys what they think is best suited to their needs.
there were all kinds of strings in the past discussing the possible improvements but as improved as they are they probably will not be your cup of tea.
i have people using very low powered amps, 20 or 30 watters that do not cost a lot and enjoying them immensely. i even did a stereophile show with a $4000, 30 watt amp and many thought it was one of the best sounding exibits there. so i do not agree. still though, the resolution and coherence potential in a smaller room will allow you to use an all out system and reap its benefits.
and as far as the arc preamp midrange, it may test right but it sounded recessive and that is what i speak of. it did not sound continuous from top to bottom. this is something you cannot measure but can surely hear. again think of their reference speaker and you will see it clearly. the amps were fine as i said before. i like the vt100 and still do.
why don't you drop it and have a nice memorial day weekend.
best, b |
tvad, eyedriver had already started a different string so i did not see the harm in going on with 9rw.
9rw, many in audio that think they have a benchmark design take it as far as they can to really refine it. how many watt puppys and vandersteen 2's have there been thus far.
the merlin vsm has been made for 15 years and there have been 7 generational changes during that time. many thousands of pairs have been built and sit in their homes around the world. countless great show reports, reviews, manufacturer recommendations/usage and most importantly, sales, have prolonged the life of this now, mature product.
i am very proud of it because it is my life's work. i do not take kindly to having a person who had owned a pair 10 years ago imply that they are the same today without even hearing them. does that sound fair to you? it seems very few share your opinion of the vsm and in fact, there are more great reviews coming from europe where they have all of the product we have here and more. i'll tell you what, read http://merlinmusic.com/reviews/ital_tsmmme.htm
because this was just published and if you get back to me without the "i know better than you attitude", i may be able to find the time to tell you what we have changed. but i will not take the time to try and explain something to a person who already has preconceptions about it. i say this because it will take some time to do. in fact why not call me at the plant this weekend at 585 367 2390. i will be there every day.
best, b |
9rw, i will respond to some of this today in your mail and the rest over the next 2 days. got lots going on now.
Good reviews, which these days are a dime a dozen, and your enthusiasm are what got me to buy a pair of VSM SE's in the first place. While they weren't by any means terrible speakers, they never lived up to the promise -- at least not for me.
the last 5 words are very important because maybe they didn't for you, but they did and more for many others.
So I don't care if you point me to a dozen rave reviews, which are often the result of buying ads and being popular with writers and publishers as much as anything else.
these people do not know me from adam and merlin has never adverised there. this is in italy. the reason i sent it to you is because andio morotti is the pen name for two gentlemen, one a musician and the other and engineer. even though it is a review of the tsm mme i thought it would give you greater insight into many of the things that are important to you.
Also, I forgot to mention that another preamp I had with the Merlins was the Levinson 380. When I replaced it with the ARC LS25, you said it was an improvement over the Levinson. It was, but I guess it still wasn't what's needed to make the Merlins sing. That's what I was referring to when I entered this thread. The Merlin speakers are incredibly fussy about associated gear. If that's not the case anymore, I stand corrected.
current production has shown people using ss and tubes with many types of cable brands. the days of being fussy are over. and if you go to the audioreview and read many of the consumer comments you will see people saying that the speaker made so much more of their music collection listenable, even their poor recordings.
So while you make a generous offer for me to call you on a holiday weekend, I think I'll pass. I do wish, however, that you would tell everyone about how exactly the drivers, crossover and cabinets differ from the ones I had in 1998. I'm sure you can summarize.
i will start tomorrow, sunday with the first of two installments.
And, finally, I have often praised you as an individual for your passion, the quality of the components and the build quality of your speakers, and your customer service. I don't know of any better. Thank you.
no, thank you.
b
9rw (Threads | Answers) |
9rw, the bam came out in 1997 and was first an ac device. in a year or two we came out with the battery bam which ran on 4 x 9.6v german mnh cells. a charger was internally included. at first 170 mah cells were avalable, then later 200 mah and now 230 mah. it is documented here on agon what the people who owned them thought but as the battery potential went up the resound/dynamics and bass extention/fullness did too. the batteries played the system in a smoother, clearer, more expansive manner with more bandwith than the ac version. later the bam was upgraded to the sbam with a switching power supply that opperated from 100 to 230v and at 50 or 60hz so it could be used here in the us or anywhere in the world. the charging caps were changed to nichicon muse series and the voltage regulation lessened by 25%. this last change made a huge difference as the unit sounded way more expasive, more extended in bandwith, fuller, clearer and smoother with less distortion. do not down play the sbam's importance, it is a dual bandpass filter and equalizer enabling the vsm to play with bass associated with much larger speaker systems. it filters rfi and emi in the top end and out of band energy in the bass below the fs of the woofer at 28 hz. this reduces 2nd and 3rd order harmonic distortion in the bass and im distortion in the mids. the bass driver can be played much louder than a basic unit because the voice coil is kept in linear drive in the gap much longer and at mouch louder levels. it is also in the signal path and its affects are extremely obvious. again well documented here by users and reviews. and with you not hearing these changes this will be your only source of information.
last came the lead free super bam and that was the crowning achievement. it made the unit play with more substance, bandwidth and a blacker background. many have sold the earlier versions on agon to get the lead free version because it sounds so much more continuous and natural.
best, b |
9rw,
the drivers are similar but both have been changed.
the esotar 330 had the suspension related amplitude depression moved lower in freq and deminished making it sound more linear and dynamic/less nasal. output went up and distortion down. the torque settings holding the face plate on were more correctly adjusted to the driver's needs in our speaker system. then a few years ago the drivers were made lead free and soon after we started taking them apart and changing the solder internally to the cardas trieutectic lead free we use in the crossover. comparing the sound of a millennium top end to the se and earlier is quite startling. the mme/mxe even more so.
the woofer, up until the se was the stock scanspeak 8545. in the millennium and later, the 8545-06. this is a driver that is made for merlin only. it uses a mueller latex compound to add mass to the cone which quiets the upper end resonances evident in the mids of se. latter versions of the 8546-06 were made lead free and shortly after that we started soldering them internally with the cardas lead free trieutectic we use in the tweeter and networks. the result is a more continuous and smooth transition to the woofer. this makes the speaker sound more coherent, like a one way.
crossover and cabinet tomorrow.
best ,b |
9rw, what marty did say is that there are different types of coherence/accuracy and imo, some may be more important than others as far as what is actually heard. this will vary depending on the listener and the product considered. there are no absolutes here.
mapman, when you have a chance e-mail me the information or link to the augmentation/filter device and i will have a look for you.
best, b |
mapman, yes, it should be designed with a specific model of speaker in mind to have its effects as positive as possible. let me know if anything ever gets published. have you read the page on the sbam?
http://merlinmusic.com/vsm_bam.htm
this describes it and its effects quite well.
best, b |
m, is the sba passive or used in the line level signal path like the sbam?
there is no doubt that these types of devices work and work very well indeed. i am totally surprized that more are not using them. the positive aspects totally out weigh any negative ones that you could think of. however, they are not easy to make sound like they are not there.
best ,b |
m, is the sba plugged into the wall (ac) or is it passive?
thanks, b |
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