Can you ever go back and be happy?

Aroma:
1) You wrote it yourself:
"Albert, if my speculations regarding what happened with Magnepan or the pricing of the Dali's is incorrect, I would appreciate if you would share why you chose one speaker over the other." Yes, you did state that you had a conversation with him, but why not write the actual statements he told you here in your post and leave the "speculation" entirely out of the discussion? So were my comments unfair to you? I don't think so in the context of your speculative comment.

2) Even when a "celebrity" might get the 20.1s at half price, $7k or so, if they can already afford a system of the caliber that Albert owns, this cost savings insignificant in the whole picture. Such people do not change to gear because of the minimal cost savings here. When you live with a certain caliber audio system for a long time, it is very difficult to step back to a lesser quality system. If we get a few thousand $$ off, or half off, or even the product for free, if the sound is not at all to our liking in what we seek today, it's not going to last in our system very long anyway.

3) Even with the recent Soundlab price increase, the M1's are only about $3k more than the 20.1s. And the SLs are in a completely different league here. Concerning foolish expenditure, paying $14k for 20.1s is big time foolish when you can get the 3.6's for $4k. Next time you visit your Magnepan dealer, ask to hear these two speakers back to back and determine for yourself that either the 3.6's are way under priced or the 20.1's are way over priced. Are the 3.6's worth double the 1.6's? IMO, absolutely yes.

I am clearly not bashing Magnepan as I love the series 3.x but I just don't get it with the series 20. And the two times I had to go to the factory (10 minutes from where I work) to get tweeters replaced, the people there were incredibly helpful.

4) You continue to bring up the issue that it's not fair that you, the "unknown audiophile", is treated differently than the "celebrity". Life's too short to let something so insignificant be irritating. Again, it's a business decision that works in favor of the company. Like Nike quickly learned, put your shoe on a sports superstar at no charge and watch your sales go off scale.

And who cares what one person paid for a product vs. what another person paid. We all pay a different price for airfare, our car, our clothes, our groceries, etc., etc., etc. Why should we all be locked into paying the same price for our speakers? What we pay often has much to do with our relationship to the business.

5) On the issue of fairness, my gosh, how do I respond to your second statement here? I'm very tempted here, but I will behave myself for a change. I'm sure that many of the highly respected home dealers out there, two that I have met, Brian of EssentialAudio and GeneRubin of GeneRubinAudio, would have a very different opinion than yours here.

When a system is setup to allow far more potential of a product to be heard than an otherwise poorly setup would do, would this not result in "promoting information that was helpful" to the customer? If the system sounds poor or even mediocre, time and time again the speakers get unfairly blamed when it could be elsewhere. Or the customer thinks the entire system is terrible....and is likely to have no further interest to hear any of those products. I have heard so many poorly sounding systems in dealer shops and a few very good sounding systems. I have never heard a home based dealer have less than a first-rate sounding system. And I have never heard Magnepans sound remotely as good at any dealer as I have at various home installations. They need to quit using Bryston to demo their products as they don't show at all the potential of their product line.

What I suggest you do is to find such a local home dealer. I would not be surprised that you will end up learning far more from that person than you will at an audio "Salon".

Enough said.

John

Thought I'd stir up some muck here -

If you want box speakers to sound like planars - try two pairs with one pair facing you normally and the other pair 180 degrees, facing the REAR wall with the speaker wires on those OUT of phase.

You will experience much of the "openess" that people think is due to some magical aspect of planars. But you'll still image way, way more precisely.

It is what Von Schweikert does in a more controlled fashion with the rear firing tweeter, and what the Alon's and Vandersteens do with open baffles. Drives me nuts personally - when I had Alon's I partially covered the rear cage with padding to absorb the back wave, and their accuracy improved by leaps. But I certainly don't dispute anyone's ability to listen to what they like.

I prefer hearing what was actually recorded coming out of the front of my speakers, than hearing a mix of out of phase rear reflections thrown in, which do sound "airy" but are NOT, and can never be, what was actually recorded. Of course it's all a matter of degree since room reflections are a fact of life. But my short planar experience really defined what I personally like - which is a sealed box.

Sorry, Jafox...but if YOU chose to offend yourself, upset yourself, and selectively choose to only want to hear part of what I actually wrote...then THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM! If you qualify irritation at the same level as having a temper tantrum, then you got problems with dealing with things that you don't like. I clearly EVEN said in my thread that I am distinguishing between accepting an unfair treatment over how YOU chose to take it which is what you misinterpret that I DON'T or CAN'T accept the unfair treatment and that I am somehow whining. Well, just like this discussion forum is meant to be used, it is just a forum to allow others to voice their opinions and then there are those like YOU who can't handle an opinion and CHOOSE to misrepresent things because you don't quite get what is being written and then have a temper tantrum! I just am at an irritation level because of what I perceive to be unfair which means that I am irritated but not angry or ready to have a temper tantrum over unfair treatment! You are entitled to have a twisted interpretation of what I actually meant and what I actually wrote on my thread in order to misrepresent my position and jump to all your conclusions. Even then, I can still accept that you are not getting what I actually wrote and not make myself offended like you did over what I wrote.

Well, you seem to be coming across as a better person than I because if you would never find yourself at a position of irritation (not a temper tantrum) over having to pay the same exact price for the same shirt at a store and find yourself just accepting it without irritation, then good for you. You mean you would not find that irritating that you were told you had to pay a higher price because this other person were a celebrity of some kind and therefore they get special prices and you won't? Well, good for you that you can walk away happy about that kind of treatment! Good for YOU! But I have a VERY STRONG STRONG HUNCH AND SUSPICION that even YOU, after what you had implied that I was somehow whining WOULD find yourself in knots about that kind of unfair treatment. So, if your answer is really yes that YOU would find yourself in knots, then I guess you have nothing more to say to me about this kind of treatment that others get because of who they are!

Furthermore, I have gone to salons, festivals like Rocky Mountain Audio Festival, store fronts, as well as listen to people who have a great system at home and in their businesses. Again, here we go with YOUR great job of deleting what was actually said! Did I every write in my thread that ALL home salons are not good??? YES! YES! YES!! As you wrote to me...behave yourself...because you might discover that YOU were the one who misinterpreted what I wrote. If you can not understand what I wrote, I can spell it out for you again...some home salons are not what they are meant to be while others are. GET IT YET??? Anyone in their right minds would read this not as an "ALL or NOTHING" statement, but you Jafox would! Continue to behave yourself and bite your tongue before you say something that continues to show how you are misrepresenting what I wrote. Like yourself when you said that "I have heard so many poorly sounding systems..." and I would like to highlight your word "MANY" because as an intelligent person like myself, I would read that as a statement that Jafox is NOT saying all sound poorly. No...no...no...not you. You misquoted me again by implying that I SAID all all bad and not legitimate. REALLY??? Again...control yourself as you have so generously said. You will once again find that you are wrong. I am sure Gene Rubin of Gene Rubin Audio that you speak so highly about is legitimate. But I am actually stating that some dealers are not what they are intended to be. I would like to emphasize "SOME" to make sure that I am continuing to say that some are legitimate while others are NOT!

I have carefully heard MG-20.1's driven by electronics like Ayre, Levinson, Boulder besides Bryston.

Come on...Jofox, don't you have anything better to do than to misread things??? My advice to you, and again this forum is allowing me to do so, is to read a thread very carefully before you make all the wrong conclusions and interpretations! That would actually make you sound more intelligible, don't you think?

And as a final note, I still do not take YOU of all people personally! Why don't you do the same and just take the discussion forums for what it is meant to be! A discussion.

DB,

The S.A.P. J2001s that I own are NOT at all like the current model offered by S.A.P. The model I have was discontinued by the manufacturer who claims it is too expensive to build (at U.S. retail of $22,000 they can't make money?). I have not heard the current J2001 model so I cannot comment on its sound.

The speaker I have has two 12" drivers in a Jensen/Onken bass reflex cabinet. The drivers are very "old school" -- alnico magnets, paper cone, pleated paper surround. On top of the bass cabinet is a magnetically levitated platform that holds a horn midrange driver. A Fostex bullet tweeter is crossed in very high on top. Because the midrange and tweeter sit exposed on the top of the cabinet, they both can be moved around to change the sound. Oddly, moving the tweeter backwards increases the treble response (perhaps because that actually puts the listener closer to being on-axis).

This is a warm, yet detailed and dynamic system that lacks the peaky midrange of many other high-efficiency horn-based systems. However, even with twin woofers and a fairly large cabinet, this system does not deliver really deep bass. I've heard Jensen/Onken cabinets that delivered deep bass, but they were bigger than Sub Zero refrigerators.

One more thing of note, this is an extremely ugly and industrial looking speaker -- not only are all the drivers exposed, the crossover components are in ugly metal utility boxes that sit on top of the speaker. Another odd quirk is that speaker connections are to a terminal strip. I've been too lazy to replace the strip with real binding posts (very easy to do), so my speaker wires are barely hanging on to the speaker by my screwing down on tong of each spade. So much for Italian design and aesthetics.

I own Magnepan's and whilst I enjoy a lot of what they do, they don't do everything well. So yes, I could probably see myself living with a dynamic speaker for a while and perhaps at some point trying another planar or stat or whatever. They're just a pair of speakers, I'm not married to them or anything. If I want to play the field a little, big deal.
I hope I didn't say anything wrong, I hope nobody shouts at me.

Rooze