Can you ever go back and be happy?

Wow, look at that array of Soundlabs. Whew, imagine the low-end extension and dynamics. Gorgeous. I'll take a set in maple.

Hello,

As a previous owner of Magnepan 3.3 and 3.5 for 6 years, and now owning Soundlab A1's for 4 months, I can tell you that all planars speakers are not at all alike. Ribbon-based systems such as Magnepans and Apogee are very different altogether.

Just last week I heard the Maggie 3.5s vs. Apogee Duetta in a local audiophile's system. They both "loaded" the room very differently. I have heard box speakers that have a sonic signature right in the middle of these two products. The Maggie had much more presence in the lower half of the frequency range and the Apogee had far more presence, clarity and extension in the upper half. Nobody would have ever guessed these were both ribbon speakers as neither really bettered the other in areas one would expect a ribbon speaker to excel. Electronics were BAT 31SE line stage and 400wpc hybrid Counterpoint amp that are fully capable of driving either speaker and showing their sonic strengths.

Several years ago I auditioned Maggies 3.5s vs. three different mid priced ($3k-7k) Martin Logans at a dealer. The ML's had an incredible see-through quality but otherwise they were just way too analytical and uninvolving. The Maggie 3.5 brought on a level of musicality that was simply wonderful. Both speakers were clearly dynamically limited compared to the wonderful cone-driver-based Paragon Jem/Jubilee also at the dealer. And this was something I had retained in the back of my mind. I could never have lived with the Martin Logans whereas the Paragons were a wonderfully musical speaker.

When I went back to the dealer for a second listen to the Maggie 3.5s, I also got a chance to hear the 20s. They were so much alike that I simply could not understand the 20s costing 3x the price of the 3.5s. There was clearly a Maggie "house sound" just as there had been a Martin Logan "house sound".

I ended up with the Maggies but struggled to find amps that would bring out more of the dynamics in the music. This is why people continue to claim Maggies need lots of power. It is because we need to crank them up and push so much at them to bring on the dynamic capabilities but ultimately it just does not happen.

Finally, because of the lack of dynamics and wanting more punch in the bass, I sold my Maggies and went with the Talon Khorus. Wow, now this is a great speaker. Far more frequency extension, low-level resolution, and of course awesome dynamic capabilities. The Maggie 3-dimensional midrange magic was clearly reduced but I had a degree of musicality with the Talons that was so far beyond the Thiel 3.6 and 2.3 I was using in my HT system. The Talon was one of those great discoveries.

After a year with the Talons, I simply missed the Maggie magic so I got another pair; the Talons were moved to my HT system. Once you get used to the Maggie magic, you can't get it out of your head. So to answer the issue as asked by Teajay, the move to the Talon dynamic speaker was outstanding but I'd classify it as a lateral move as there were major gains but also losses vs. what the Maggies could deliver.

I was so happy to get the Maggie sound again but I missed the many qualities of the Talons. I got more out of the Maggies with Wolcott amps. But a year later I had concluded that it was time again to find a speaker that would bring on the Maggie magic but not have all of it's limitations. And like before, I soon realized you just can't have it all in a speaker in this price range.

Then I heard the Soundlab U1 at a dealer and the A1 at my home. In both cases, I had the Maggie 3.5s right there to get an idea of the sonic similarities/differences. Quite surprisingly, the Soundlabs and the Magnepans have very similar tonality. But that was where the similarity ended. I quickly realized how the Soundlabs have a musicality unlike the analytical sounding Martin Logans I had heard before directly against the Maggies. All electrostatics are not the same.

I was able to compare the A1's vs the 3.5's in my home system with CAT JL-3 amps. The A1's retain every quality, including the 3-dimensionality and presence of the Magnepan and yet the A1's move far more air due to their nearly double surface area; there is simply more "activity" going on with the A1's. The Maggies are big but the Soundlabs are HUGE! The A1's have extension at the frequency extremes the Maggies simply can not touch. The A1's have dynamic capabilities that again, the Maggies can not touch. The A1's have clarity and resolution the Maggies can not touch. So for me, FINALLY, I found a "planar" speaker that truly does it all like one would only expect from a dynamic speaker. If it were not for the Soundlabs, I would have abandoned planar speakers altogether. But! Now that I have heard the true greatness of planar (Soundlab) speakers, I am eager to hear the same caliber of cone/box speakers. I suspect the likes of the Avalon Eidolon or the Eidolon Diamond, VonSchweikert, Verity, Dynaaudio, etc. to name a few, could give the Soundlabs a run for the money. I would love to get the Avalons into my music room for a listen.

Another member, who recently has made such a change is Albert Porter. He has a lot of experience with the Soundlabs and yet he has changed to the Dali Megalines. I suggest you read his virtual system comments on what he has experienced with the Dalis vs. the U1s he previously owned.

John

Brian: Oh yes I would love to come back there and to hear that setup. And I will bring the Versa TT and box of parts to get that up and running too. But I'd like to wait until I decide on the final outcome of the Aesthetix Io/Callisto vs. the Aria preamp when it comes out. This would be a rare opportunity to hear either vs. the Vendetta/Blowtorch. I will let you know ahead of time when I can get back out that way. John

Aroma: Since I suggested people look into Albert's writings here to learn about his progress of the Dali vs. his long time Soundlabs, I feel obligated to respond to many of your points:

1) The issue of why Albert changed from the Soundlabs: Rather than throw a lot of speculation as to the details of price of the competition, reliability of what he owned, or the deals he may have gotten on his latest components, why not let him speak this for himself? You do a big disservice by saying all this and then you close with the comment that if your speculations and comments are incorrect, you would like him to answer why he has changed to the Dalis. With your "delivery", who would be motivated to share in return?

And you've got to be kidding that such an audiophile would not buy the Magnepans because he did not get a discount. Please review his system, add up the cost of the products, and then see if you feel the same way. Is someone who has invested in a highly resolving $100k+ system for years and years going to push aside a product that might be THE perfect match because they did not get a few thousand dollars discount? Just one of his interconnects costs more than your speculative discount "that he did not get". Come on, be serious. Common sense went out the window on this one!

2) The issue of fairness and how "unknown" audiophiles are not treated fairly: Hello! What about magazine reviewers? IMO, they do not provide remotely the value of experience and willingness to share as Albert and others have done here. So please take a closer look at who has special treatment here. If it is to a business's advantage to give certain people a reduction in the cost of a product, then you can be certain they will do so. It's called advertising! And with all the exposure and respect that people like Albert get here, you can be be assured many people, including myself, take very seriously what he writes here. This would indicate that such an audiophile would be a prime candidate for which companies could expose their products. But again, why not let him address this rather than throw out your comments?

3) The issue of Magnepan 20.1s vs. Soundlabs: As I wrote before, I owned the series 3.x for 6 years and absolutely loved them. And when I heard the 20s, in the same system minutes later, they too were wonderful but just a marginal improvement over the 3.x. Yes, the difference was marginal.

In my view, the 3.x Maggies have no competition for the price point unless you need a more dynamic system. Where else can you pay less than $4k for such awesome sound? But once you hit the $10k+ range, such as the series 20, it's a different story. The Soundlabs are in a very different class altogether. The Maggies sound compressed, muffled, minimal bottom octave extension, lacking inner detail in the trebles, etc., etc., compared to the Soundlabs. This is NOT subtle at all. And again, this is coming from a long time Maggie diehard. So why on earth would someone who tweaks his sources, electronics, cables, speakers, etc., to significant levels beyond the off-the-shelf variation, move from the SL's to the Maggies? IMO, Maggies would be a huge step in the wrong direction in virtually every sonic attribute for such a system.

4) Comparing Maggies to other speakers like Avalon, B&W, etc.: Unless you heard these speakers back to back in the same exact system, such comparative comments have little merit. I heard B&W 802's at my home against my Maggie 3.3s and the B&Ws were VERY musical and natural but I prefered the Maggies for their midrange presence. The Thiel 3.6 and 2.3 that I used in my HT system were way too analytical compared to the Maggfie musicality. But I would be very careful to make comments on any Avalon models as my gut feeling tells me they would destroy the Maggies in many of the same sonic attributes as the Soundlabs over the Maggies.

5) The issue of Magnepan not having "home" dealers: I respect this but time and time again, the most impressive systems I have heard have been either at dealers who work from their home or at homes of other audiophiles. The home environment is far more stable from day to day vs. a shop with many rooms with ever-changing gear. And the home environment much more closely resembles what we will experience in our own system. Soundlabs does this and clearly with great success.

John

Aroma:
1) You wrote it yourself:
"Albert, if my speculations regarding what happened with Magnepan or the pricing of the Dali's is incorrect, I would appreciate if you would share why you chose one speaker over the other." Yes, you did state that you had a conversation with him, but why not write the actual statements he told you here in your post and leave the "speculation" entirely out of the discussion? So were my comments unfair to you? I don't think so in the context of your speculative comment.

2) Even when a "celebrity" might get the 20.1s at half price, $7k or so, if they can already afford a system of the caliber that Albert owns, this cost savings insignificant in the whole picture. Such people do not change to gear because of the minimal cost savings here. When you live with a certain caliber audio system for a long time, it is very difficult to step back to a lesser quality system. If we get a few thousand $$ off, or half off, or even the product for free, if the sound is not at all to our liking in what we seek today, it's not going to last in our system very long anyway.

3) Even with the recent Soundlab price increase, the M1's are only about $3k more than the 20.1s. And the SLs are in a completely different league here. Concerning foolish expenditure, paying $14k for 20.1s is big time foolish when you can get the 3.6's for $4k. Next time you visit your Magnepan dealer, ask to hear these two speakers back to back and determine for yourself that either the 3.6's are way under priced or the 20.1's are way over priced. Are the 3.6's worth double the 1.6's? IMO, absolutely yes.

I am clearly not bashing Magnepan as I love the series 3.x but I just don't get it with the series 20. And the two times I had to go to the factory (10 minutes from where I work) to get tweeters replaced, the people there were incredibly helpful.

4) You continue to bring up the issue that it's not fair that you, the "unknown audiophile", is treated differently than the "celebrity". Life's too short to let something so insignificant be irritating. Again, it's a business decision that works in favor of the company. Like Nike quickly learned, put your shoe on a sports superstar at no charge and watch your sales go off scale.

And who cares what one person paid for a product vs. what another person paid. We all pay a different price for airfare, our car, our clothes, our groceries, etc., etc., etc. Why should we all be locked into paying the same price for our speakers? What we pay often has much to do with our relationship to the business.

5) On the issue of fairness, my gosh, how do I respond to your second statement here? I'm very tempted here, but I will behave myself for a change. I'm sure that many of the highly respected home dealers out there, two that I have met, Brian of EssentialAudio and GeneRubin of GeneRubinAudio, would have a very different opinion than yours here.

When a system is setup to allow far more potential of a product to be heard than an otherwise poorly setup would do, would this not result in "promoting information that was helpful" to the customer? If the system sounds poor or even mediocre, time and time again the speakers get unfairly blamed when it could be elsewhere. Or the customer thinks the entire system is terrible....and is likely to have no further interest to hear any of those products. I have heard so many poorly sounding systems in dealer shops and a few very good sounding systems. I have never heard a home based dealer have less than a first-rate sounding system. And I have never heard Magnepans sound remotely as good at any dealer as I have at various home installations. They need to quit using Bryston to demo their products as they don't show at all the potential of their product line.

What I suggest you do is to find such a local home dealer. I would not be surprised that you will end up learning far more from that person than you will at an audio "Salon".

Enough said.

John