Can room acoustics amplify the sound of speakers?

I've chased and solved the very same problem in my own system and it wasn't the room acoustics ... see if this is similar

You system sounds wonderful 99.5% of the time ...it does everything right from sound staging to top to bottom coherency ... nothing sticks out or glares in the midrange and extreme's ... top and bottom end are extended and well defined

Everything sounds fine until there is a very brief and powerful peak/passage (Crescendo) called for, that demands a large draw of current for a very brief period

Hint ... it isn't the amp clipping or it would be shutting off briefly

For that brief nano second or so ... the whole presentation goes to Hell in a Hand Basket ...

The sound stage shrinks to a small ball in between your speakers ... the sound congels ... it ESPECIALLY sounds like someone is shouting rather than singing ... and dynamics get looped off on the trailing edge ...

You also notice that this happens only on PEAKS and is not connected or related to any normal upper octave frequency brightness

It's like you're driving down a very smooth highway at a high rate of speed and you hit a deep pot hole abruptly ... and it's over that quickly

The problem of the brief shouty-ness is probably caused by the OPAMPs in the CD player's SS output stage not being able to deliver enough current to drive the IC and the load on a strong PEAK and they loose their linearity momentarily when placed under the high demand for current during the PEAK/Loud passages

This is not an issue of impedance or voltage mismatch between components ... it is the Op Amps distorting because the can't deliver the current required in that brief high demand period

When the music becomes demanding, the OPAMPs will loose their linearity for a brief moment, distorting and that distortion then confuses and causes the Negative Feedback loop, to oscillate and ring while trying to maintain the signals integrity from input to out put

The negative feedback loop try's to maintain the signal from input to output but when the chip OP Amp run out of deliverable current for that nano second on a PEAK and distorts .. the negative feedback loop picks up the distortion and starts oscillating and ringing for that brief moment that the Op Amps can't maintain the needed current to dive the intergrated and are out of linearity

The ringing which is very brief, and only on the peaks of demanding passages is perceived as "Shouty-ness" and seems to be pretty common with CD players that use SS output stages with chip OPAMPS ... although I don't think many are aware of it or blame the problem on something else

Here's more proof ... no matter what volume you are listening to your system at ... low, medium, or high ... this distortion and shouty-ness will be present on all strong peaks as it is the Op Amps in the source causing the problem and sending the distortion to the next component ... the intergrated amp ... and not the intergrated amp's lack of power because the distortion is still present at low listening levels on the peaks ... so the amp can't be running out of power at low and medium listening levels

If this sounds like your problem ... tell me what you use for a source and I might have the solution ... and if this does not sound like your problem ... it's a good thing I put on my Flame Suit and Eye Protection on

nonoise ... my post comes from direct experience of having a very well treated room with a good response curve but the same annoying shouty-ness and congestion that Sunnyjim is complaining of

I swore it was the far wall barking at me and then I read a blurb about op amps fading and getting shouty ... I added a current dividing SS outboard buffer and the shouty-ness and congestion went away

So I switched the player and the buffer for a player that has a SS class A no negative feedback J/Fet analog out and now have plenty of current and no feedback system to muck things up

Un and Stan Duke and Zman ... Let me try and tidy up a bit

I will be the first to agree that until you neutralize the negative effects of the room ... you're shoveling ---- against the tide

Until that room's negatives are corrected you can't really know the full potential or real signature of your equipment

FIX ROOM FIRST #1

On Op amps ... I should have made it clear that the ones I were referring to are the ... all circuits on one, everything on the head of a pin with power supply type intergrated chip that have trouble remaining linear ...

There are also discrete Op amps made up of anywhere from 20 to 40 individual components on a board to build a single op amp circuit to perform tasks ... much more robust ... but you don't find them in a most CD players, especially Sunnyjim's Rega

Yes the industry loves the convenience, ease of implementation, size, low cost, and all in one architecture of these darling pin head all in one CHIP OP AMPS

Agree with Stanwall that many talented designer can find alternative ways to skin a cat .... but I strongly suspect Sunnyjims cat is mea owing because of that all in one chip in the analog output

My walls are "not barking" at me yet as Davehrab noted about his back wall, but the shouting has not stopped

Consuming large amounts of Gin and Corn Chips at mid day lead to colorful metaphors ...

Shouting is the correct word and symptom ... also substitute Congests for Congeals in the first post ... they are not the same thing and congests momentarily is what it does

Why don't high-end audio stores encourage an acoustic evaluation of a buyer's room; .... and create additional revenue

For years the industry has made money in spite of itself ... it didn't have to offer anything additional to be profitable and stay in business

A up sell (Room Acoustic) purchase after the initial sale may void the whole deal because there is a chance you will balloon the customers budget and lose the entire sale

Most sales seem to be predicated on price and position in Stereophile/Absolute "Recommended Components" list ... gives you very little to sell with

Try pitching the features and the benefits and educate and informing your buyer

Note to Sellers ... sometimes "I don't No" mean "I don't Know" .. and needs some aditional educations to change the "No" to "Know"

I think there is 3 things every buyer wants and deserves ...

Price .. Service .. and Availability = Real Value

Second, it would be interesting to find out how many manufacturer's rely on a "one chip" output configuration Davehrab suggested of the Rega Apoll

If you knew you would faint ... it's the weapon of choice in over 90% of the sub $2500 and down machines

Don't task me ... just contact the mfg of your player and ask them if they use a chip or discrete op am in the analogue out section of their player

Now of course they are going to deny any such problem exits with this Chip Op Amp ... but here's where you have to trust your Ears (What you Hear) vs your Eye's (What you read)

How many of us, just guess at acoustics, or assume that the overstuffed furniture in the living room will cure all the negatives

"Knowledge without understanding is a direct path to failure"

How many do you think put the effort into the self education like Duke did ... we all started with the same amount of knowledge ... NONE

I am not sure I understand how Davehrab would solve the electronic problem of overloaded or overworked op-amps.

I can give you 4 suggestions ... Good Better and Best and Replace ... but lets see if anyone else can offer a solution before I commit

How much could it possibly cost a manufacturer to eliminate this problem. I am sure buyers would pay a reasonable increase in retail to attain good sound.

It's not as easy as just fixing ... My Ayre D1EX was $8600 ... that fixed it

I don't think it's as much a price thing with Mfgers as the universal (ality) of the chip .. multiple application on one chip for ease of implementation, and convenience for building and mfgering are probably more the reason at this price point component

Stan .. appreciate you coming back and offering support to my theory on sunnyjim's problem

Initially I know s/j was a bit reluctant to accept what I put forward vs the Industry but ... with your post and support I'm sure he feels much better now about accepting what the problem is and now just has to resolve it

Also appreciate you removing all self interest when giving subjective opinion on this one .... has to be tough to get caught between consumer and industry ... but today I think s/j came out the real winner the way it's supposed to happen in this forum