Can my MC275 power speakers with 91db sensitivity


I am looking to buy some songs faber cremona speakers with the following specs:

SENSITIVITY
91 dB SPL (2,83 V/1m).

NOMINAL IMPEDANCE
4 ohm.

I have the most recent MC275. Would my amp have enough power?
elegal

Showing 7 responses by almarg

First, as a point of information, keep in mind that since 2.83 volts into 4 ohms corresponds to 2 watts, the speakers will just put out 88 db for an input of 1 watt, at 1 meter. That is particularly significant in the case of a tube amp such as the MC275, since tube amps generally cannot supply much more power into 4 ohms than into 8 ohms. (For 8 ohm speakers this is not an issue, because 2.83 volts into 8 ohms corresponds to 1 watt).

It can be calculated that 75 watts into the two speakers will result in an SPL of around 100 db at a distance of about 10 feet, neglecting room reflections and thermal compression that may occur in the speakers at high volumes. That is good enough for most listeners with most recordings.

However, if you listen to recordings having particularly wide dynamic range (the DIFFERENCE in volume between the softest and the loudest notes), such as some well engineered, minimally compressed classical symphonic recordings, you might find the amp running out of steam on occasional dynamic peaks. If your listening is mainly to recordings that are highly compressed and/or have little dynamic range, such as most rock recordings, and you don't listen at unusually high volume levels or at an unusually great distance, you won't have a problem.

Perhaps a more important concern, though, is what the amplifier will sound like when driving the speakers. If the speakers are the same version of the Cremona that John Atkinson measured here, or if they are a different version having similar impedance characteristics, I would have some concern that their impedance characteristics in some parts of the bass region might be a bit difficult for this amp to deal with gracefully. Note that the impedance magnitude is only around 3 ohms from 80 to 200 Hz (where a lot of power is often required), and as JA notes there is a very challenging phase angle just below that region. And, not surprisingly given those characteristics, I see that JA mentions that the Cremonas "seemed more sensitive than normal to amplifier choice."

Hopefully someone who has tried this particular combination will comment further. Although, again, the dynamic range of the kinds of recordings that are listened to by the particular individual, and the listening distance, are important variables.

Regards,
-- Al
I see that the amp is rated to deliver 150 watts into 2, 4, or 8 ohms in paralleled mono mode. So adding a second amp might very well be beneficial, but given the expense and the wait that would be involved, as well as some remaining uncertainty, personally I would look for a different speaker that has more benign impedance characteristics. Unless an audition of the particular combination turns out to be possible, or persuasive anecdotal indications about the particular combination turn up.

In any event, good luck as you proceed. Regards,
-- Al
Could you recommend a such a speaker?
Some of the following may be significantly more expensive than the Cremona, and/or unlikely to be frequently available used, but fwiw most or all of the models offered by the following manufacturers would be suitable matches, and are generally well regarded:

Tannoy (as Dan recommended), Daedalus, Coincident, Audiokinesis, Audio Note, Devore, Zu Audio, Tonian, Horning.

It might also be worthwhile to search "MC275" in the Audiogon virtual systems section to see what speakers others are using with that amp.

Regards,
-- Al
I couldn't find an impedance curve for the Olympica III, so I'm not sure. But given its 4 ohm nominal impedance and sensitivity that is similar to the Cremona (1 db is a trivial difference, and in this case is in the wrong direction), without further information I would not have confidence that it would be a good match.

To be sure it's clear, everything else being equal a higher sensitivity (defined as SPL as a function of input voltage) would work in your favor. Note that the negative reference to greater sensitivity in the John Atkinson statement I quoted referred to sensitivity to amplifier choice, not to SPL sensitivity.

Also, I see that the Olympica III is listed at $13.5K. There are lots of good choices in that price range which can be confidently predicted to be good matches, including models from many of the manufacturers I mentioned above.

Regards,
-- Al
Jimmy, rather than composing what would be a lengthy and somewhat off topic response to your posts just above (with which I partially agree and partially disagree), I just want to make one point. Your test methodology was potentially harmful to the MC240, as it can be harmful to operate a tube amp having an output transformer without having a speaker (or, alternatively, a suitable load resistor) connected to it. Especially when a signal is being sent into the amp, as was the case here.

The reason is that "inductive kickback" occurs in that situation, which can result in damage to the output transformer and/or the output tubes. Google that term for more info.

Regards,
-- Al
I have no experience with the MC275, but from a technical standpoint I suspect that there is some validity to Polk432's point. The current (Mark VI) version of that amp has a specified damping factor of 22, which is unusually high for a tube amp. Correspondingly, its output impedance is unusually low for a tube amp. That suggests that its design utilizes a greater than average amount of feedback for a tube amp.

Everything else being equal, all of that will shift its sonic character in the direction of being more akin to typical solid state sonics than would otherwise be the case. In numerous ways: A reduction in effects on frequency response flatness resulting from interaction between amplifier output impedance and variation of speaker impedance as a function of frequency; reduced Total Harmonic Distortion (THD); better bass damping than would otherwise be the case; increased Transient Intermodulation Distortion (TIM); a reduction in some lower order harmonic distortion components that tend to be numerically greatest but are relatively inoffensive; and an increase in some higher order harmonic distortion components that tend to be numerically smaller but are more offensive.

Elegal, re your last question, if you want to consider going to a different amplifier you should settle on a choice of speakers first, and then choose an amplifier that will be synergistic with it. Some speakers are designed to sound best with solid state amps, some are designed to sound best with tube amps, and some will do fine either way. The Daedalus speakers I use are an example of a design that will do fine either way. Their output will reflect the intrinsic sonic character of the amplifier that is driving them, but there will be no issues relating to amplifier-speaker interactions with either type of amplifier.

Regards,
-- Al
Hi Bruce,

I can't envision any way in which that might cause a problem. Inductive kickback occurs because the voltage across an inductance (in this case, inductance in the transformer) is proportional to the amount of inductance multiplied by the rate of change of current. A very abrupt change in the amount of current flowing through an inductance can result in a VERY large voltage spike, albeit a brief one, if the energy has nowhere to go. If that spike occurs in the transformer secondary, it can result in an even larger spike in the primary, due to multiplication by the turns ratio of the two windings. But without a signal being present, none of that would happen.

The one exception I can think of to that (which doesn't apply to your situation) might be if the amp were turned on or turned off without a load being present. In that situation an internally generated turn-on or turn-off transient might conceivably be large enough and fast enough to constitute a potentially damaging (or long-term reliability degrading) "signal." But even that would seem to be unlikely in most (but not all) cases. One situation I can envision in which it MIGHT be a problem is if the amp has a B+ relay which abruptly turns on plate voltages to the output tubes some seconds after turn-on. That would result in an abrupt change in the amount of DC current flowing in the transformer primary.

Best regards,
-- Al