Calling all analog experts

Apologies to anyone if I came on strong. I just love my TT too much. My motor had a circuit board bug and I just got it back from Chris Brady. He turned it around in one day and installed the $70 Signature II board upgrade for free! Hugs, kisses...

Jyprez,
Agree you can get great stuff used, better than anything new for the $. That's how I got my 901, otherwise we couldn't have afforded it. (Also my CDP and amp.)

If your Gyro is portable a side-by-side would be great fun. We could probably swap arms pretty easily, to make it as apples-to-apples as possible. I'd offer to return the visit but an assembled Teres is not easily transported. Tilting it even a little would spill oil from the bearing.

BTW, did you hear John Michell just passed away? Sad new for analog lovers, RIP.

Psychicanimal,
I don't know if the Teres project considered DD or not, great question. Eldartford suggested the same thing a little while ago. Controlling stylus drag is the goal of course. DD "should" do that very effectively, assuming other problems can be avoided. Since the Teres motor is claimed to be virtually noise and vibration free (as much as that's possible) it seems like an obvious candidate.

Sayas,
After testing many materials, mylar belts proved the best performers on Teres, Redpoint and Galibrier TT's. VHS tape was a close second. The advantage of mylar vs. rubber or neoprene is its dimensional stability. A non-elastic belt provides a direct torque linkage between motor and platter, instant resistance to that stylus drag Albert loves so much! If slippage can be avoided, a rigid link best emulates Psychicanimal's direct drive. Obviously this requires a motor that is vibration-free and speed-stable, so that dampening is not required. The Teres motor seems to fit the bill, and I expect the Redpoint/Galibrier motors do also.

You can check my thread "TT Drive Belt Comparison" for a description of the sonic benefits of mylar vs. the silk string Teres used to use. Also Agaffer's recent thread.

I've never observed any static buildup between my belt and platter. Perhaps because the Teres bearing is grounded? Perhaps because my wood platter is a poor conductor? Don't know if this is a problem for a Teres with an acrylic platter.

Jsonic,
If you're still following this very hijacked thread, are you old enough for some of this? How can a nude stylus be in drag?

Jsonic,

Good advice from all the above. I'll echo Twl's advice with the unseemly enthusiasm of a new Teres owner. Clearly there's some risk in buying from a younger company, but the performance advantages overwhelmed those concerns for me. FWIW, Chris Brady addresses reliability and service quite well on his website.

You didn't mention a budget, but if $1500+ is available for a table I don't think you will match a Teres. Come listen to mine in CT and you'll know why used ones are so rare. OTOH, if you're more comfortable in the mainstream many say Nott' offers great bang for the buck.

Teres, OL and Shelter all provide superior performance while controlling costs by avoiding the mainstream distributor/dealer/big magazine ad channels. If you're able to accept that risk, the musical rewards will be higher.

YMMV of course. Enjoy the hunt and whatever prey you find!

Well, this discussion beats the crap out of everything!

Jsonic,
I'm in Middletown, a bit of a hike from the TZB. Still it's always fun to meet other audio-phools so the invitation stands. Sundays are generally my only free day, though not all of them. Let me know if it makes sense for you to travel this far. We'll have Jyprez stand by to moderate!

Bob,
It's certainly difficult to compare components in different systems. We have lots of brands in common (Shelter, OL, c-j, B&W) but not a single model except our tonearms, almost. If you heard better bass I'd suspect multiple causes:
N803 vs. M804
240wpc SS vs. 60wpc tube (I bet yours sounds sweeter)
Shelter 901 vs. 501
HIFI Modded OL Silver MkI vs. unmodded OL Silver MkII
two cats vs. no cats
and maybe this brick of a TT

Since your visit I improved my cartridge mounting and alignment based on your observations (thank you). I also lowered VTA a touch. Mids and HF's have more 3-D palpability and clarity than before. We didn't listen to any female vocals, but now they're to die for.

---
Let's try a theoretical TT shootout. Yesterday on AA there was a post about a new VPI, the Scoutmaster. Picture a Scout with a double thick plinth, taller platter and upgraded AC motor. Without arm it would cost around $1500-1600, similar to a Teres 135. Let's compare feature-for-feature:

Bearing
Teres is more massive, tighter toleranced (12+ hour seat time vs. 2) and viscous-damped

Platter
Teres is 57% taller/more massive

Plinth
Teres is taller/more massive but VPI has a steel layer, call it a draw

Belt
Teres mylar is more speed stable than VPI rubber

Motor
Teres DC is quieter and more speed stable than VPI's AC

Controller
Teres monitors platter speed and self-adjusts; VPI, umm, you fiddle the belt up or down on the pulley!

Armboard
Teres will accommodate virtually any arm, the armboard is easily replaced or swapped; VPI must re-drill and/or replace the plinth to change arms, forget swapping.

Plinth & platter upgrades
Teres offers upgrades with trade-ins for your old parts. VPI?

Power supply
Teres offers a fully isolated, self-recharging battery power option for $110. VPI offers just an AC power conditioner that costs many hundreds more.

Conclusion
At this price point the Teres 135 clearly "beats the crap" out of one major competitor. Other $1,500 tables might come closer of course, but I don't know any that would match it. Twl's statement was a bit enthusiastic, but not totally unrealistic.

---
I like everything Sayas said except his implication that the oft-noted limits of the Aries are due to its lack of an active suspension. That's actually its best feature! I'd guess its problems are due to:
- too much acrylic (excessive warmth/rolled off HF's)
- a lousy motor (very well known now)
- an unstable tonearm (cartridge can't do its job)
Unless you can afford a Walker or Rockport, I believe a properly implemented non-suspended TT will retrieve low level information best. IMHO of course! :)

Jsonic, dope slap accepted.

You're right about CB. He won't sell you more than you want, but he may deliver more than you expect. He's done that for me twice. Thus my loyalty.

I haven't heard any TT at the $1,500 price point. Nor have I seen one whose specs, design elements and user reactions better the Teres 135. Just my observations.

Sayas,
Totally agree with everything you said. A Teres is the very embodiment of "simpler is better". Model upgrades get you better materials but the design is a constant, except for that crazy model 340.

Setup is simple. It's not quick, but only because the bearing needs 12-24 hours to seat and must not be handled during that time. The instructions on their website actually helped convince me to buy.

A Teres is not portable. There's an oil bath at the top of the bearing well that would spill over if you tilted it. Set it up where it's going to live and leave it alone.

Except for armboard angle there is nothing to adjust.

In my system the limiting factor for bass response is the 32Hz rolloff of my speakers. My TT goes lower, stronger and cleaner than my CDP.

Jsonic, you asked, so here goes. Long but hopefully pertinent post alert!

Most audiophiles prefer MC to MM. Unfortunately MC's are more expensive, sometimes hideously so, and there are many who either can't afford them or decide they're not worth it. Obviously that's a personal choice. FWIW, to my ears a good MC is decidedly superior to any MM.

Think of the cantilever of your cartridge as a horizontal teeter-totter:

moving stylus moving coil or magnet

The coil of a MC is lighter than the magnet of a MM. Lower inertia allows the stylus to trace rapid groove modulations more accurately. Your stylus is expected to reverse direction up to 20,000 times per second, accurately. A lightweight car will handle those twisty roads better than a heavy truck.

Psychicanimal is surely correct that his MM cartridge performs best on a manly TT that can haul modulated grooves forcefully past its higher moving mass. Nevertheless, he would get still better performance with a cartridge of lower moving mass. Cars handle better than trucks even if the truck "has a hemi"! :)

Besides cost, another downside of a MC is that its lower moving mass generates a lower level electrical signal. Most MM cartridges output 5.0mV. The output of MC cartridges varies, but the best ones rarely generate more than a tenth of that. MC's require more high-quality amplification from the rest of the system, and component matching becomes critical.

The cartridge/table match matters, as Psychicanimal noted, but cartridge/arm matching can be even more critical. The following will be controversial for some, though I also know many will agree.

Great handling cars have fairly stiff suspensions to maintain tire contact with the road. The best performing cartridges have fairly stiff suspensions too, for exactly the same reason. These low compliance cartridges need an arm that resists lateral deflection well. Otherwise big groove transients will let the cartridge wag the arm instead of generating maximum signal.

Agree with Agaffer. The Teres was my first serious TT, and was easy to set up. Not many steps, just follow the instructions.

Also agree that you should decide which arm you're going to use before ordering the TT (any TT). In the case of Teres, Chris will pre-drill the armboard to suit. Most other serious manufacturers would do the same.