Klipsch forte 2 used are the ones I have taken notice of most. 99db efficiency I believe is the spec.
Hmm negative reactions to Klipsch a line that has probably sold more speakers and been around longer than 90% of the lines around here. Not exclusive enough I suppose. In any case used forte 2 can be had for 500 or so used in good shape and have a big following so no problem would be had reselling. You never know until you try. I have heard several of their more modern lines as well and thought them to be quite good even off modest amplification. Hard to beat for high efficiency per $$$ which matters a lot with just a few watts to play with. |
New Klipsch Heresy II that just fit your budget new reviewed by Absolute Sound. THese are the other Klipsch that stay on my radar screen for affordable true high efficiency speakers. Older versions come up used for less regularly. These were originally made with low power tube amps in mind back in the day. |
Mik its very efficient and designed to work well with low power tube amps and within budget.
As pointed out most speakers have trade offs. Whether not its the speaker for rebbi or not who knows. Its certainly a viable candidate. Bass need not be as extended usually in a small room and many feel these deliver quality bass especially off just a few watts which seems logical due to high efficiency enabling more bass per watt. Its one on my radar screen for a low power tube amp. |
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Does Sebrof have tektons? I saw some interesting large DIY HE speakers with HEIL tweeters on his system link here that I was under the impression he whipped together himself?
They were BIG and all custom built I gathered! I think I saw Sebrof estimated 95db efficiency or so. Big usually helps with the bass off just a few watts. I'm imagining teh sound with a SET would be impressive and perhaps a challenge to match if not DIY. I'll be very interested in hearing teh results with Tekton Lore if that is the case as well. I would expect the clipping issues resolved as well with Tekton Lore especially if they are truly 98 DB efficient or even close. |
If it were me I'd go for the larger woofer and higher efficiency to best hedge my bet against clipping. Clipping is always public enemy # 1 of good sound. Its the kryptonite to the amps Superman. Goal # 1 should be to keep it out of the picture. The one is in the best position to assess improvements from tweaks like other tubes, power cords, etc.
At least that's how I would look at it. |
The thing about Tekton is that they offer a very good value and a favorable customer satisfaction policy. Plus the choices are highly limited when one needs a good high efficiency speaker on a limited budget. It seems there are only a relative few ponds one can fish in for inexpensive yet proven high efficiency speakers these days compared to the competition.
Its all about what floats ones boat. The good news is there is always a way to make it all work out. More so these days than ever. |
Agree with Seikosha.
Personally though I think "Katz Meow" is one of the more creative speaker names I've heard.
Lore will do though.
Wasn't he Data's evil twin android brother back on STTNG?
And didn't Data have a pet cat?
I detect a pattern here..... |
I would be surprised if they were 98db efficient for example if Klipsch Heresy III horn loaded design is 99db.
In any case, either should represent a huge step up in efficiency from the Decapos and hopefully put any semblance of clipping to rest. |
Good idea to compare the amps assuming one is older and proven and one is just a newborn baby! |
Reb,
Honestly from your accounts of how severely teh sound was distorting I was wondering if all was well, especially with soft clipping in play and all, but had nothing concrete to base that on other than that the amp was newly built, still a baby and relatively untested.
I wish I would have said something earlier. Oh well. Glad you found a way to test things out further without having to try new speakers. It'll all work out with continued patience.
Cheers and Shabbat Shalom! |
I'm wondering if it could be something as simple as a tube issue. At this point probably best to have someone with the right equipment check it out.
If the tech can determine or if an can specify I would wonder again about the output impedance of the amp and if to spec. Distortion levels into the same load speaker could be higher if output impedance is higher. Of course could be anything. Will stay tuned. 👀 |
FWIW, regarding what can be expected from a SET architecure as opposed to other tube based designs, my understanding about SETs in general, based purely on what I read, which is consistent with what I have heard to-date, is that its their midrange that make them special. They can do well on the extremes as well but it takes a fairly specialized approach to component matching with high efficiency speakers in particular for them to be able to "do it all", especially in the bass. Of course a smaller room helps to enable doing all that is needed practically in many cases.
I hope it works out with the Decapos. I'm still thinking there is a good chance from what I hear once the technical issues with teh newborn amp are sorted out. |
Reb, does Brian agree at this point that the test you did with the problem tracks at Sebrof's with yours versus his amps confirms a problem? They are two different amp/designs for example. Frequency response differences in teh lower octaves alone for example might account for that if teh AN is attempting to put out more power at lower frequencies for example.
Seikosha's idea comparing apples and apples amps sounds like a good one to me. I'm not sure that output power ratings alone tell the whole story in regards to what to expect necessarily.
Also I would guess someone familiar with the amp like the AN tech or Brian could identify if the sonic effects of the amps clipping, which is undoubtedly bound to occur at some point, is as expected. For example, assuming soft clipping, teh volume might stop going up well before audible clipping occurs.
Just some more food for thought FWIW. Sounds like the best thing is for an expert in your particular amp to give it a once over in person, which is where you are heading. |
REb, one other question I am curious about. Did your amp go louder at Sebrofs before clipping than at home with the Ref 3as? I would expect at least that assuming use with the more efficient speakers. Whether or not one amp rated a few watts higher than another would actually go as loud or louder in any particular case is a little greyer for me. |
I'm hard pressed to see how it could be called a good match if truly not that efficient in the bass but may only need match to a certain extent depending on listening volume requirements and room size mainly. Its not working properly currently would seem to be the consensus so there is still a chance. |
fwiw i had a defective input board on one of my ref1000m amps not long after i acquired them . The foil or conductive material on the board had separated from the board resulting in substantial distortion at all volumes. Replacing the board resolved the problem. So a defective circuit board is certainly a logical candidate assuming all else checks out properly. Am interested also in whats wrong with how those capacitors are installed. Looks good in the pic. |
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Hmm, well let's be real and not exaggerate.
Any good quality amp delivering just a few watts will clip and distort sooner than one of similar good quality with more watts, all else aside. Its just a matter of when and how. I don't think this point is debatable even really.
In this case specifically though, the experts are saying that there is something wrong and it should not be clipping and distorting as soon as it is. That makes it harder to resolve perhaps in that the issue is not as severe as many it would seem, but I don't think it accurate to say that an amp that delivers only a few watts clipping is "rare".
If one applies an underpowered amp to a task in general it might be harder than normal in practice to determine if things are working properly or not as this case would seem to support, in that clipping WILL occur sooner than in other cases. |
I will say a Mi Sheberakh prayer of healing for the amp tonight. |
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Well, let's not jump to conclusions. I hope that's the case, but time will tell. There are many reasons why one thing may sound better than another case by case.
No doubt sending the amp to an expert with the right knowledge and tools to get to the heart of the matter is the best thing at this point. |
Sounds like digital Pete is the right guy to sort through it all. Then we will know. I am rooting for a happy ending. Once the amp is certified to be doing its thing perfectly as it should, you'll know if it is able to fit the bill with the Decapos to your satisfaction. I think there is a reasonable chance of that occurring and am rooting for it, but only time will tell. Its not a match made in heaven, so anything is possible. Might still be even if it were. |
Glad to hear its working as it should now. Time to just enjoy now hopefully. |
It is great news the issue is finally resolved.
Reb, my only other advice is to make sure to not place the amp near anything that might be generating a strong magnetic field as a precaution.
If teh transformers had become magnetized, one explanation would be that they were in close proximity to a magnetic field of some sort at some point in their life, possible well before you ever met them. |
"The problem, it turns out, was with the output transformers. Brian and Pete have NEVER seen this issue in all the years they've been shipping and assembling these kits, but somehow or other these transformers had become magnetized and as a result weren't putting out full power."
That's a new one for me for sure. Glad they found the problem. Did they indicate the possible causes? I would want to know so as to know what to avoid in the future. |
Bass is where less efficient speakers will struggle more off just a few watts in some way. Its never good to work an amp too hard when it comes to detail, bass or otherwise. |
Tekton will be a better match on paper from a pure performance perspective. That should mean it sounds better as well, but of course that is a more subjective call so you can never know for sure until you try. |
My view is that if one truly cares about getting the best possible sound, you have to use components designed to work best together. Otherwise, things may still sound good, maybe even good enough for all practical purposes, but you will likely be missing the best performance possible until everything is more optimized together.
Anyone looking for a nice well cared for pair of Decapos keep your eyes open...
:^) |
"I've never heard Sebrof's main speakers but I've seen them and they're impressively huge. "
Well, it IS Texas where, well, you know the old saying. |
Reb,
I'm glad it all worked out as it should.
There may be some lessons learned here for AN Kits in particular.
You mentioned during the build as I recall that the build documentation was new or still in some unfinished state. has that been resolved? If one is to have a chance at building a kit anywhere near as well as an expert like DP, the build documentation should be 100% accurate. If DP is the expert, I wonder if he helps develop the build guides? Or at least provides editorial feedback. Its not clear to me that one would have a chance of doing it as well as him currently with the documentation that you were provided initially. My impression is taht it was somewhat not up to date and would not specify some of the things that Pete did.
The devil is always in the details with complex projects like this, especially with finicky audiophiles.
A complete and up to date and fully accurate build guide would help keep AN kits customer support costs down I would think so it would be a top priority if it were me. |
BTW,
Thanks for sharing hte whole ordeal. WHen teh day comes for me to try out a basic tube amp, it might well be the AN. The cost for Digital Pete's build over teh kit could turn out to be quite worthwhile, especially for someone lacking time and patience for a project like this, like me. |
Reb,
I have in the back of my head that sometime soon I will sell off 1 pair of my speakers and maybe a second string pair of amps and some other extra stuff to help finance the high eff. tube amp setup that I have been wanting to try for quite some time. It would become the 2-channel a/v system in my family room I'm thinking.
The problem is mainly that things sound so good their already that its hard to justify added cost of another change but sometimes its nice to try things just for the sake of trying something different.
This thread and related info has helped solidify Ankit/Tekton as a frontrunner for me as well when the time comes.
It would mainly just require three analog inputs one of which would be a external phono pre-amp. |
Reb, what are teh dimensions of the assembled kit? It would have to fit in my vertical cabinets out of site or teh wife would not approve. |
I am also wondering how much heat the amp generates? I keep teh backs open on my cabinets but the front glass doors closed usually when listening so heat generated could be an issue in their. My current TAd Hibachi amps in taht system sit on the floor next to the cabinets hidden behind the speakers. My wife would love if I could downsize and fit everything nicely in the cabinets. That alone would be a good excuse for me to make a change. |
But the thing is I am sitting here as I type listening to the setup I would change thinking I don't want tonloosevthis sound. I hear all the things that gets attributed commonly to a great sounding system. Why spend more money? My wife would like less clutter but is not complaining.
Maybe just because it's fun to try new things that work differently.
We'll see. In the meantime I ain't suffering by any stretch. 😉 |
Reb thanks.
That would be a tight fit. 😖.
For the purpose of truly downsizing I am close to pulling the trigger for a glow amp 1 which is much smaller and lighter. I mentioned early on I have heard the glow at shows and liked it very much. Plus for 840 it's all direct wired and they throw in a free external dac to boot currently in a promo.
The an is a piece that calls for being prominently displayed. It would be a shame to have to hide it in a cabinet. |
I would start with the triangles. They are small for that room alone though. I would probably either have to add a sub (the one I used to use with those died a few years back) or I might decide to try something new like latest Tekton Lore with titanium tweets. |
HEy Rebbi,
Want a larger pair of HE speakers at a good price?
Check these out:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-crites-klipsch-inspired-horn-speakers-cornscala-style-b-100-db-1-watt-2015-05-13-speakers-10001-new-york-ny
I know nothing more than the ad so just pointing them out.
Shiiping to Texas alone is probably a deal breaker. :^) |
Pangea has one model for power amps (focus on current delivery) and one for source or pre-amp (focus on noise shielding and control).
I use the latter (AC14SE) with both tube-output DAC and tube pre-amp and can state with certainty that these made a significant improvement in detail and clarity with my gear.
Neither is a perfect fit for an integrated amp though so I would recommend going with something that others have had success with used with a SET tube integrated amp specifically. |
Reb if your digital source has stock cord and can be replaced I would recommend Pangea ac14 series for that.
Different cords from vendors like Pangea specifically have different designs for different problems. Some targeting line level gear that do not draw much power and others targeting power amplifiers that do.
A set amp operates in class a and draws a lot of power from the line continuously as I understand it. So I would expect you want a power cord designed for that kind of amplifier specifically as al indicates.
The Pangea model for amps I'd the ac 9 line which costs more than ac 14 for line level gear. The Pangea cords are very good build quality and design for the task at hand. Ac 9 would likely be the one you'd want there for an amp that draws a lot of power. I'm sure there are other good ones that set users can vouch for based on experience. I plan to add ac9 cords to my class d amps someday. I suspect they would have a positive effect over stock cord in your case but cannot say how much or what's "best". |
Signal Cable appear to be well thought out products for modest cost. I would consider those as well as Pangea, which I am very happy with so far for my DACs and pre-amp, for my power amps someday. |
